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#11
10-31-2005, 09:21 AM
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correction
[ QUOTE ]
Good 15/30 game. Loose/aggressive SB, bakku is UTG, cold callers are loose/passive. Preflop: I am BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. bakku raises UTG, three cold callers, the SB calls and I call. Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checked around. Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] SB bets, I [/ QUOTE ] just wanted to mention that there were only 2 cold callers. 5 to the flop not 6 
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#12
10-31-2005, 09:49 AM
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Re: 15/30 68s
Jason,
why is this is not an easy raise? there is a good chance you are ahead, but that each of your oppos has 6 outs. either get them out or make them fold incorrectly.
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#13
10-31-2005, 10:55 AM
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Re: 15/30 68s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Good 15/30 game. Loose/aggressive SB, bakku is UTG, cold callers are loose/passive. Preflop: I am BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. bakku raises UTG, three cold callers, the SB calls and I call. Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Checked around. Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] SB bets, I [/ QUOTE ] i had A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], i think i should have bet the flop? i'm not sure [/ QUOTE ] I'm generally betting this flop. With like 5ish overcard outs + backdoor flush + backdoor straight possibilities you've got like 6-7 outs here. The players behind you look passive and often won't raise top pair here. You knock out a player or two, but a call-fest probably is fine because you have an equity advantage. Other likely will call with Ax and QJ and other hands you have dominated. Even if it's raised behind you and it gets heads-up or three-handed your hand is really not losing that much because of your chance of improving. Betting may encourage tight players to fold hands like 33 which would be nice. So I generally bet here. Usually, if I'm the pre-flop raiser, I tend to have a very high burden of proof for why I should NOT bet the flop; there is not nearly enough badness going on here to make me want to check. As for the turn, I think Jason should raise, personally. He'd like to clean up all his two pair/trips outs, and he may well be ahead. The pot is worth fighting for because of the pre-flop action.
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#14
10-31-2005, 11:57 AM
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Re: 15/30 68s
[ QUOTE ]
I'm generally betting this flop. With like 5ish overcard outs + backdoor flush + backdoor straight possibilities you've got like 6-7 outs here. The players behind you look passive and often won't raise top pair here. You knock out a player or two, but a call-fest probably is fine because you have an equity advantage. Other likely will call with Ax and QJ and other hands you have dominated. Even if it's raised behind you and it gets heads-up or three-handed your hand is really not losing that much because of your chance of improving. Betting may encourage tight players to fold hands like 33 which would be nice. [/ QUOTE ] Betting won't tell you where you are. TT,AA,KK may use an over call and raise on the turn. The flop check allowed him to check and smells of over cards not a pair. The free turn card for you gave you no concern to proceed but other cards could have meant a wasted flop bet. You also risk calling a raise on the flop. If you are chasing the straight you hope to retain callers not price them out. If you bet and got raised you are likely heads up now chasing a straight and a weak back door flush. The flop check could be a slow play but if you raise turn you will find out. I'm checking the flop and raising the turn.
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#15
10-31-2005, 12:20 PM
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Re: 15/30 68s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm generally betting this flop. With like 5ish overcard outs + backdoor flush + backdoor straight possibilities you've got like 6-7 outs here. The players behind you look passive and often won't raise top pair here. You knock out a player or two, but a call-fest probably is fine because you have an equity advantage. Other likely will call with Ax and QJ and other hands you have dominated. Even if it's raised behind you and it gets heads-up or three-handed your hand is really not losing that much because of your chance of improving. Betting may encourage tight players to fold hands like 33 which would be nice. [/ QUOTE ] Betting won't tell you where you are. TT,AA,KK may use an over call and raise on the turn. The flop check allowed him to check and smells of over cards not a pair. The free turn card for you gave you no concern to proceed but other cards could have meant a wasted flop bet. You also risk calling a raise on the flop. If you are chasing the straight you hope to retain callers not price them out. If you bet and got raised you are likely heads up now chasing a straight and a weak back door flush. The flop check could be a slow play but if you raise turn you will find out. I'm checking the flop and raising the turn. [/ QUOTE ] This is a disaster. 1. I'm not betting to "figure out where I'm at." This idea propounded by Hellmuth, Harmon, and others is not really a great one. I'm betting because I may be ahead (rarely); I have a bunch of equity and may have an edge against a field of callers calling with dominated hands; I might get better hands (like small pairs) to fold; I'm against passive opponents; I am unlikely to get raised; and may be able to use my flop bet to encourage my opponent to check the turn and give me a free card. 2. Thinking about certain turn cards as "meaning a wasted flop bet" is silly. Many times we'll bet and raise big draws on the flop only to have them miss. Those bets aren't "wasted"; when they went in, we had a mathematical advantage on those bets. We just did not "cash in" our expectation, so to speak. This is bad, results-oriented thinking. (It's sort of like saying "I don't raise AK pre-flop because I want to make sure I hit first" or saying "I checked my set on the turn because I wanted to make sure a flush card didn't hit on the river"). 3. I am risking having to call a raise on the flop, but from what I can tell Bakku's opponents are pretty passive. There aren't a whole lot of really good hands possible on this flop. I'm not to worried about overpairs, and often passive players will not raise hands even as good as AT here. If it gets raised and I'm heads-up, I'm not in horrible shape, as I have almost 8 effective outs against a hand like QT. 4. Raising the turn here is really, really, really bad. I concede that usually we are not ahead here on the flop in a strict sense (though betting is correct for other reasons). We very rarely have the best hand, players are going to be very unlikely to fold a raggedy turn here just because you raise. Players at these limits do not fold to this kind of bullsh--, fancy-play-syndrome raise. This kind of betting is massive chip-spewing and you really need to work to purge your game of this kind of play. In what situations would you actually check the flop and raise the turn as the pre-flop raiser? (If you are playing close to correctly, the answer is very, very rarely). You're play is going to look fishy and no one is going to buy it. Any value that you have as far as information is concerned is fool's gold, as you've already cost yourself 2 big bets to figure out (surprise!) you're beat. 5. Why are you so worried about AA, KK, and TT. Many of these hands raise pre-flop. They are really not that likely. Even passive players will usually get reasonably aggressive with QQ here also. TT and JJ are possibilities but they're really not worth worrying too much about yet. The much more likely hands that are beating us are hands that include Ts with a facecard or A and hands like 88.
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#17
10-31-2005, 01:02 PM
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Re: 15/30 68s
I was confused with your logic until I got to 5. Your entire post was based on misreading the original post.Read the post again and then let us know what your thoughts are.
[ QUOTE ] This is a disaster. [ QUOTE ] 5. Why are you so worried about AA, KK, and TT. Many of these hands raise pre-flop. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Preflop: I am BB with 6 8. bakku raises UTG, three cold callers, the SB calls and I call. [/ QUOTE ]
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#19
10-31-2005, 01:04 PM
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Re: 15/30 68s
[ QUOTE ]
I was confused with your logic until I got to 5. Your entire post was based on misreading the original post.Read the post again and then let us know what your thoughts are. [ QUOTE ] This is a disaster. [ QUOTE ] 5. Why are you so worried about AA, KK, and TT. Many of these hands raise pre-flop. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Preflop: I am BB with 6 8. bakku raises UTG, three cold callers, the SB calls and I call. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] My apologies. We are talking about totally different things: My original post was about whether Bakku should bet the flop. I thought you were responding to that question, and hence penned a response to why Bakku should bet the flop. Sorry for the confusion.
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#20
10-31-2005, 01:14 PM
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Re: 15/30 68s
[ QUOTE ]
2. Thinking about certain turn cards as "meaning a wasted flop bet" is silly. Many times we'll bet and raise big draws on the flop only to have them miss. Those bets aren't "wasted"; when they went in, we had a mathematical advantage on those bets. [/ QUOTE ] Agree. But we don't have any solid draws until the turn. [ QUOTE ] This kind of betting is massive chip-spewing and you really need to work to purge your game of this kind of play. In what situations would you actually check the flop and raise the turn as the pre-flop raiser? (If you are playing close to correctly, the answer is very, very rarely). You're play is going to look fishy and [/ QUOTE ] The situation is if the PREFLOP RAISER shows signs of over cards that didn't connect and I have a pair with a straight draw. Can I eliminate the passive callers and get the two over cards to fold? Can I get the bettor to check behind me on the river. Maybe not but by raising I increased my odds of winning the pot with one bet where check call doesn't. This raise is based on the same logic you used to bet into a preflop raiser and a couple of cold callers. The difference is the raise has shown weakness and I only have only one player to push out after that.
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