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#11
10-28-2005, 07:11 AM
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Re: Middle pair against a TAG, crowd on the flop.
Nice hand. I play it the same on every street.
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#12
10-28-2005, 07:28 AM
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Re: Middle pair against a TAG, crowd on the flop.
I dunno, I'm not a huge fan. I think you are folding the best hand an irritating amount of the time.
How about check-calling the turn and then donking a safe river? This seems way better to me...I'd feel a lot safer folding to a river raise than I do folding to the turn raise, and this line also gets a lot of value from ace-high. Will
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#13
10-28-2005, 07:38 AM
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Re: Middle pair against a TAG, crowd on the flop.
[ QUOTE ]
That's a good point. But does a player have to be a rock to take the line I took? Unless he just spews, I don't think the turn raise is anything less than a pair. My line has to look like a PP or an idiot with an Ace and he hasn't seen me make any big folds. - Jim [/ QUOTE ] One thing I think about sometimes that's sort of theoretical is that your line does represent a pocket pair, like you say, and the line is exploitable, if Villain thinks he can get you to lay that pocket pair down with a turn raise. I think about this sometimes when I'm taking a similar line to yours (with a flop 3-bet thrown in). I don't know how many TAGs actually exploit this line. Probably not too many. (A turn raise with just overcards is just spewing if you won't lay your hand down.) But it's something I have started considering more, now that I'm playing 5/10, because in general some of my standard 3/6 lines don't seem as effective at my new limit.
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#14
10-28-2005, 11:21 AM
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Re: Middle pair against a TAG, crowd on the flop.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] That's a good point. But does a player have to be a rock to take the line I took? Unless he just spews, I don't think the turn raise is anything less than a pair. My line has to look like a PP or an idiot with an Ace and he hasn't seen me make any big folds. - Jim [/ QUOTE ] One thing I think about sometimes that's sort of theoretical is that your line does represent a pocket pair, like you say, and the line is exploitable, if Villain thinks he can get you to lay that pocket pair down with a turn raise. I think about this sometimes when I'm taking a similar line to yours (with a flop 3-bet thrown in). I don't know how many TAGs actually exploit this line. Probably not too many. (A turn raise with just overcards is just spewing if you won't lay your hand down.) But it's something I have started considering more, now that I'm playing 5/10, because in general some of my standard 3/6 lines don't seem as effective at my new limit. [/ QUOTE ] This is just so spot on. OP has clearly defined his hand as a mid pp. This may be one of those times that I want to see showdown, even if calldown is not strictly warranted. Learning/knowing that villain would raise this turn with overs would be +EV over the long term.
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#15
10-28-2005, 11:31 AM
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Re: Middle pair against a TAG, crowd on the flop.
Hey Jim, I'm raising preflop near 100% of the time. Stated differently, I would prefer to have KQs coldcalling rather than raising behind me. 77/88 are hands that I almost always openraise or raise limpers with position, particularly if tight players are behind me and the button. My LP limping 2-3 off the button with tight players behind gets substantially shadier than a mid-pair.
Your postflop line screams weak and willing to fold. While betting and hoping for a flop raise is a good way to protect your hand--the Button should raise overcards if he can read hands well--it suffers a lot if you never checkraise this flop or never bet intending to 3-bet. I would usually 3-bet. I like being perceived as giving a lot of flop action. It induces very good things for me in other areas.
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#16
10-28-2005, 12:37 PM
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Re: Middle pair against a TAG, crowd on the flop.
I agree with 3-betting the flop once it gets back to us and is HU. The pot is pretty big and I don't mind him folding overcards to a bet on the turn. Given how you played it's extremely difficult to tell if he's overplaying AK or has us beat. I'd be more comfortable with folding if he raised me after I 3-bet the flop.
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#17
10-28-2005, 01:00 PM
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Re: Middle pair against a TAG, crowd on the flop.
[ QUOTE ]
Given how you played it's extremely difficult to tell if he's overplaying AK or has us beat. [/ QUOTE ] Given how the hand played out, how could he possibly be overplaying any hand at all if the hero will fold more than 25% of the time? Or, let me state it another way. If you are donking the turn a decent amount intending to fold to a raise, you are adopting a line that many observant players will exploit.
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