an example of why red zone is good

[Exitonly]

Everything just clicked for me, as to how fo shuut down your argument.

You have more equity with marginal hands when you ahve a short stack, because stealing the blinds is what makes it a $$ play.

But you lose LOTS!!! of value when you actually have real hands. To compare:

Lets say you have AA with 7 guys left to act behind you, There are 2bb's in the pot already. and just for the simplicity, they all only call with 99+,AJs+,AQo+, which is 5.4% of hands. you have 84% equity vs taht range.

with 4BB's in your stack, you have an EV of 1.83, pretty good.

with 12BB's in your stack, you have an EV of 2.42, nice.

The differences are even greater when you get called by worse ranges.

--

So yea, you can make a few more situations SLIGHTLY more profitable, because you're tiny, but you're losing out on a lot of value with that middle sized stack.

[PrayingMantis]

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Of course this is merely a singular example, but I believe that it does at least prove something. it shows that in this particular spot, you CAN make more profit with a smaller M.

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Honestly, I didn't read all your post but just went through your points, and very clearly saw that you are making the same fundamental conceptual mistake that some people are making again and again in those other threads about this stuff.

I'm not interested in getting into a discussion, because I'm well aware that this will go absolutley nowhere like in previous times, but I'll just say this:

I can give you many "singular" examples for situations where I might make more per a specific hand when I have an X stack rather than a Y stack, when Y>X (and of course - how I can make MUCH more per another specific hand when I have Y stack rather than X, but this isn't relevant to YOUR point).

However your particular point, valid as it is, has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the $EV of having a Y stack is by definition greater than the $EV of having X stack, UNTIL YOU COME UP WITH SOME ABSURD GENERAL MODEL FOR MTTS THAT SHOWS HOW A SMALLER STACK IS WORTH MORE IN TERMS OF ABSOLUTE $EV THAN A BIGGER STACK.

Enough already.

[Br00mcorn]

[ QUOTE ]
Everything just clicked for me, as to how fo shuut down your argument.

You have more equity with marginal hands when you ahve a short stack, because stealing the blinds is what makes it a $$ play.

But you lose LOTS!!! of value when you actually have real hands. To compare:

Lets say you have AA with 7 guys left to act behind you, There are 2bb's in the pot already. and just for the simplicity, they all only call with 99+,AJs+,AQo+, which is 5.4% of hands. you have 84% equity vs taht range.

with 4BB's in your stack, you have an EV of 1.83, pretty good.

with 12BB's in your stack, you have an EV of 2.42, nice.

The differences are even greater when you get called by worse ranges.

--

So yea, you can make a few more situations SLIGHTLY more profitable, because you're tiny, but you're losing out on a lot of value with that middle sized stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

well. in this example, i'm saying that you CANNOT make more BB/hand with a med stack. this includes REAL hands. the problem with your arguement is that you don't mention just how rare it is that you get AA. sure its nice when you can pickup a great hand and get allin on the flop against somebody with TP or something who you have crushed. but really, AA and KK come about a combined 1%. even QQ or JJ, its MUCH rarer that the flop will come such that you're able to get allin with a hand that you're destroying.

so, showing how much you make with your monsters doesn't show much in terms of EV, unless you also do a weighted average, thinking about how often you'll actually be dealt that hand in a given spot.

[PrayingMantis]

But why do you need to use 2 different accounts?

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
Everything just clicked for me, as to how fo shuut down your argument.

You have more equity with marginal hands when you ahve a short stack, because stealing the blinds is what makes it a $$ play.

But you lose LOTS!!! of value when you actually have real hands. To compare:

Lets say you have AA with 7 guys left to act behind you, There are 2bb's in the pot already. and just for the simplicity, they all only call with 99+,AJs+,AQo+, which is 5.4% of hands. you have 84% equity vs taht range.

with 4BB's in your stack, you have an EV of 1.83, pretty good.

with 12BB's in your stack, you have an EV of 2.42, nice.

The differences are even greater when you get called by worse ranges.

--

So yea, you can make a few more situations SLIGHTLY more profitable, because you're tiny, but you're losing out on a lot of value with that middle sized stack.



well. in this example, i'm saying that you CANNOT make more BB/hand with a med stack. this includes REAL hands. the problem with your arguement is that you don't mention just how rare it is that you get AA. sure its nice when you can pickup a great hand and get allin on the flop against somebody with TP or something who you have crushed. but really, AA and KK come about a combined 1%. even QQ or JJ, its MUCH rarer that the flop will come such that you're able to get allin with a hand that you're destroying.

so, showing how much you make with your monsters doesn't show much in terms of EV, unless you also do a weighted average, thinking about how often you'll actually be dealt that hand in a given spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops. sorry. br00mcorn is my friend who i had been discussing this theory with. she had used my laptop(normally i'm on my desktop), and just now i put the post in without even noticing that it was logged in under her name.

[Exitonly]

I used AA as an example, the same stands for other hands.

Bigger stack = more value out of your good hands.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
oops. sorry. br00mcorn is my friend who i had been discussing this theory with. she had used my laptop(normally i'm on my desktop), and just now i put the post in without even noticing that it was logged in under her name.

[/ QUOTE ]

I very rarely use it, but I'll make an exception, especially for you.

LOL

[pfkaok]

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However your particular point, valid as it is, has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the $EV of having a Y stack is by definition greater than the $EV of having X stack, UNTIL YOU COME UP WITH SOME ABSURD GENERAL MODEL FOR MTTS THAT SHOWS HOW A SMALLER STACK IS WORTH MORE IN TERMS OF ABSOLUTE $EV THAN A BIGGER STACK.


[/ QUOTE ]

please, sir. could you actually read though the entire post before flaming it? i'm sorry that the title "an example of why red zone is good" is a bit misleading. i never once say that having a smaller stack will give you better overall chances in the tourney. NEVER. THAT IS STUPID. AND I AGREE WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE USING THAT TO FLAME ME. the problem is, that isn't an assertion of mine.

my assertion is that having a small stack gives you more +tEV spots, and thus it would be, for example worth more REAL$ EV, per chip. or having a stack of M = 4 will be more than half as valuable as a stack of M = 8. So, i'm saying that in certain spots, when you have a midsized stack, its advantagous to take gamles. mostly this is with smaller stacks, who, if you double up will put you in the red zone, but if you knock them out it will give you enough chips to begin taking advantage of big stack play.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]

I used AA as an example, the same stands for other hands.

Bigger stack = more value out of your good hands

[/ QUOTE ]

well. i understand this, but my point is that hands THAT good are simply rare.

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having a stack of M = 4 will be more than half as valuable as a stack of M = 8

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, you mean each chip we lose is more valuable than each chip we gain?

This is revolutionary. Can I sign up for your newsletter?