KK vs raise.

[ReadyEddie]

I called the turn. and folded UI on the river.

But I'm still not sure which is the right play. I'm leaning towards a fold mainly because BB is calling 2 cold, and he isnt a total fish. So i'm thinking some of our outs are discounted even if we arent up against a made straight. like the 5,9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] We could also be up against a set, as i can put 8's and 9's maybe even 6's within their PF CC range

[droolie]

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I called the turn. and folded UI on the river.

But I'm still not sure which is the right play. I'm leaning towards a fold mainly because BB is calling 2 cold, and he isnt a total fish. So i'm thinking some of our outs are discounted even if we arent up against a made straight. like the 5,9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] We could also be up against a set, as i can put 8's and 9's maybe even 6's within their PF CC range

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You called closing the action on the river? What was the river card? I think if you're going to call the turn raise you should call a river blank (non-diamond) closing the action too.

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Easy fold. You said he is not tricky. You are drawing dead here. The overcall cinches the deal.

LLL

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The overcall means nothing here on such a draw heavy board.

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I disagree, BBs call of a bet and raise indicates that he probably has at least 2 pair. So even if MP3 is only on a draw, you have to BOTH dodge the draw AND beat the 2 pair - same if its the other way around - none of which will be enough to win if either one has already made the straight.

Easy fold.

[sean c]

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Easy fold. You said he is not tricky. You are drawing dead here. The overcall cinches the deal.

LLL

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The overcall means nothing here on such a draw heavy board.

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I disagree, BBs call of a bet and raise indicates that he probably has at least 2 pair. So even if MP3 is only on a draw, you have to BOTH dodge the draw AND beat the 2 pair - same if its the other way around - none of which will be enough to win if either one has already made the straight.

Easy fold.

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BB called two cold on a board that has two four flushes on it. His overcall is a fush draw more often than a made hand IMO. I am not saying a fold is terrible but what i am saying is the bb overcalling is not a good reason to be folding here.

[ErrantNight]

you called the turn and folded because you didn't hit a 2 outer? wha?!

don't call the turn if you're not going to call a river blank.

but call the turn. just call a frickin' river blank. if a draw comes in, then you can exit.

this is a great turn to semi-bluff raise... and it's an easy turn for someone to keep calling on. none of this means you're behind yet. if you think (and i think, correctly) that there's a chance you're still ahead on the turn, you've got to showdown if the situation doesn't change.

Sean, I never said that the overcall is the only reason I fold here. But it has to be taken into consideration.

LLL

[ErrantNight]

right. which is why you fold if the river brings in any draws.

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right. which is why you fold if the river brings in any draws.

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I agree, I also agree that the turn call commits me to at least calling if the river is a blank. Knowing this, do I really want to call the turn? Do I want to commit for 2 BB's with this board and not being heads up? What percentage of the time will I be better than both of them?

I fold the turn.

LLL

I'd fold the turn.

[ErrantNight]

i think you're giving up too much, because you're only committing to two more bets when the river is a scare card.

the turn has enough draws out there that outright bluffs, semi-bluffs, or value bets from worse hands with strong draws (say, a pair with a flushdraw and a gutshot) are all pretty likely.