i fastplay acesup

[kiddo]

Why are people saying we should raise turn? I honestly thought that raising turn here is something only lowlimit players do?

I have very hard finding a scenario where raising turn is best we can do as long as BB is anywhere near a thinking player.

Of course we have to attack on flop or river? (I think flopraise is best, cause he will call down with 9, but very often checkcall 9s on river if we just call).

[mperich]

I have been waiting until the turn to raise a lot more hands lately. I think it has helped me a fair bit in midstakes gamesas it really seems to diminish the power of the flop c/r for my opponents. (Also it can help to punish pesky flop donkbetters and make it harder for them to define your hand with their donkbets, especially if they are thinking players)

With the smoothcall c/r, raise turn line against a thinking player: Yes it screams strength, but if you notice a player folding to it, it becomes a valuable bluff (albeit a bit expensive) because a thinking player can lay down tp with an ok kicker to this line if they think you are tight/solid. Especially if you are making it into a freeshowdown play this can be extremely valuable as a semibluff. Basically, if you think this line is only correct against poor or lowlimit players, it's because you are not varying your play enough, IMO.

-Mike

[Lmn55d]

I agree with calling a flop checkraise to raise the turn, but in this hand BB donked the flop. I find that a lot of time if he's bluffing he just gives up on the turn and if he has a 9 or 4 or even sometiems a weak ace he will check the turn.

I agree, however, that the wait-till-turn raise is a powerful weapon in shorthanded midlimit games, but I don't think it's for the reason you stated. Yes, if you frequently wait until the turn to raise your turn bluff/semibluff/free showdown raises have more folding equity. However, I think the effectiveness of waiting until the turn is a product of how frequently people semibluff and/or raise for a free showdown in these games, as opposed to the other way around. People often don't fold a worse hand to the turn raise for this reason.

[SparkyDog]

Here's a benefit no one has pointed out yet.

When he has a lower two pair or a big ace, he'll often 3bet a flop raise and bet the turn. Then maybe slowdown after you raise the turn too. Or he'll C/R the turn and you can 3bet or call down. Either way it's a lot more money than letting him shut down to a turn raise. You can do this because you beat the vast majority of his range.

When you only have one pair, it's best to raise the turn because it will keep him from getting a fuckton of bets in with a bigger kicker or two pair. He can always threebet though, but then you can fold because he's representing more strength when you're also doing so. You may not quite be overrepresenting your hand per se, but you certainly aren't underrepresenting it and he doesn't care.

It's a lot harder to 3bet a turn raise with two pair than it is to flat call a raise and checkraise the turn. But calling down with two pair after the turn is easy.

So you make it hard for him to get in 3bets with the best hand and easy to call down after getting 3-4.5 BB's into the pot postflop when he's behind.

EDIT: In the frequent case that he only has one pair, the difference between these two lines is a paltry .5BB's, assuming he ALWAYS leads the turn after you flat call the flop. Which is not a small assumption. But you make a lot more when you both flop bigger hands by fastplaying. And you save a little more when he outflops you.

[SparkyDog]

1) It's hard to dick up top two pair.
2) Raising the turn all the time is way too transparent. So if for deception purposes only you should raise this flop some of the time.

[mperich]

Blah I dont know how to read. Yes, we werent checkraised...I wait until the turn probably a litle more than I raise the flop here, but I like to vary it a lot. Maybe 60/40ish.

As for the smoothcall/wait till turn line, sorry my post wasnt very clear. I agree that it gains a lot of its power from value betting (I will often use it with MPGK and up depending on the board). I was tyring to point out that if this line is getting too many folds (since kiddo said this line is no good against anywhere near a thinking player), then it is because you are not varying your play enough, or using the freeshowdown enough. Altho, I realize he was talking about smoothcalling a donkbet and raising the turn, but I think the same concepts apply.

-Mike

[Lmn55d]

ah yea, cool. Your point about it being a great counter to constant flop checkraisers is a good one. I know at 10/20 it seems everyone gets a hard on at the thought of checkraising the flop. A strategy that reduces the frequency that people checkraise you on the flop is probably a good one because so often those flop checkraises put you to a tough decision either on the flop or the turn.

[joker122]

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I like it. Some ace hands will 3-bet you, some will c/r you on the turn.

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and even more will just call down or fold.

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If he's donking he might not bet the turn anyway, since he can expect a raise from a large range of hands (aces for value, some PPs for free showdown/value).

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that's a good point, although it's pretty rare they don't continue here.

[joker122]

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i picked this hand out of one of tstone's video because i told him i thought he should have called the flop in preparation for a turn raise. i still think this is probably correct unless the villian has Ax.

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??? Ax is the ideal hand for waiting for the turn. he's always betting the turn and he's never folding in fear of a better ace in this steal situation.

[joker122]

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ok guys, i see i messed this one up bad.

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It's not that bad, it's just suboptimal.

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it's bad considering that raising is the worst play possible (since folding isn't a realistic option)