(11) A play I dont see very often - Page 2

golfcchs · #11 10-20-2005, 12:54 AM

I know that a donk could make a great call, but the only hands I am worried about the limpers having are 77-99 and the ocasional slowplayed AA,or KK. I think with this specific of a read I can make this play.

TheNoodleMan · #12 10-20-2005, 01:53 AM

I think that trusting reads at the 11s leads to FPS.
Best case scenario is that you just wasted the best possible spot to have a small pair. Worst case scenario you are dominated. Limping is the play. It isn't even close.

golfcchs · #13 10-20-2005, 02:03 AM

Whats PFS? Also when I see a guy with over 70% volintary put in pot and a 20% pre flop raise I think he is limping trash and raising most pp that beat me.

wuwei · #14 10-20-2005, 02:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
ok so if you get a call from a range of TT-55,AJs-A5s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,AJo-A5o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
(these may be loose, but it is a range of hands that you would likely see IF the limper calls the push, and in my experience at the 11s these calls do happen) your 66 is a 52% favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on now... do you really think that a loose limpers limping range is = to their calling range? Even at the 11s, the calling range will be much tighter.

Regardless, I agree with you and everyone else that limping is the best play.

bjb23 · #15 10-20-2005, 03:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ok so if you get a call from a range of TT-55,AJs-A5s,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,AJo-A5o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
(these may be loose, but it is a range of hands that you would likely see IF the limper calls the push, and in my experience at the 11s these calls do happen) your 66 is a 52% favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on now... do you really think that a loose limpers limping range is = to their calling range? Even at the 11s, the calling range will be much tighter.

Regardless, I agree with you and everyone else that limping is the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, notice how i said IF you get a call from the limper. also notice how i said that the range is loose but not completely off base compared to some of the calls ive seen.

anyway, the range doesnt really matter all that much; even if the range was changed to TT-55,AQs-A8s,KJs+,AQo-A8o,KJo+ for the limpers the 66 would be 49% to win.

the point is that a fifty percent shot, coupled with a chance of running into an even bigger hand (with three left to act and/or a limped big pair) is most definitely not worth the reward.

TheNoodleMan · #16 10-20-2005, 03:35 AM

FPS = fancy play syndrome.

IdiotVig · #17 10-20-2005, 10:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I know that a donk could make a great call, but the only hands I am worried about the limpers having are 77-99 and the ocasional slowplayed AA,or KK. I think with this specific of a read I can make this play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be worried about TT-QQ, too. 11ers limp these all the time, even multiway. Maybe not QQ as often, but you can definitely throw TT and JJ into your "worry" pile. I see people limp, bet out on a Qxx flop, get popped, and type "I hate JJ" before mucking all the time at the 11s.

stupidsucker · #18 10-20-2005, 10:22 AM

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FPS = fancy play syndrome.

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Just rename thins SSS. Stupid Sucker Syndrome.

This is probably my biggest all time #1 leak.

#19 10-20-2005, 10:30 AM

I use this play a lot, and you will get INSANELY loose calls

Think any pair, any ace, KT+, QJ+

I'd wait for a stronger hand personally. With hands like AK i do this all day.

SonnyJay · #20 10-20-2005, 11:18 AM

Suspecting that you will currently have the best hand and/or can fold off everyone else doesn't mean that pushing 22xBB is the optimal play.

All you're saying, golfcchs, may be true. That being said, you're taking an unnecessary risk when you don't need to. The fact is that if you get called here you aren't going to like it. You don't want to be taking a 55-45 edge at best here. You need to fold this guy off a huge percentage of the time to confidently make this play.

I've seen a number of posts like this in the last couple days, confusing "+EV" plays with the optimal play. It may work out that your push here is +$EV (though I am doubting this), but that does not mean that this is the most +$EV play. As TheNoodleMan said, you have a small pocket pair in the best possible scenario: in late position with multiple loose limpers who will likely pay you off when you hit your set. It's true that you don't hit the set that often, but you'll have invested very little to do so and can likely extract many chips when you do.

You may indeed have an edge here, but I strongly suspect you have a much better edge when you limp and make them pay when you hit your set.

-SonnyJay