99 facing betting on the flop

[Koss]

The CO worries me. He's facing a donkbet and a call, and then raises. This is almost always a premium pair higher than your nines. I think you have got to fold this turn UI regardless of where the bet comes from. It would suck to give overcards a free look at the river, but I don't think you'll be facing overcards too often in this spot.

[pokernicus]

Thanks for the replies and advice so far! It's much appreciated.

I agree that the SSHE hand chart isn't a gold standard -- after all, poker is situational, and there are rarely universal guidelines that govern how a given hand should be played.

Given that I'm in early position with no real reads on the table and given that the game seems relatively tight, where do you generally draw the (admittedly fuzzy) line between limping in versus raising versus folding when holding a pocket pair? Do I raise w/ 99, but limp with 88? Or 77? etc. I think you have to draw the line somewhere -- personally, I would probably raise with TT in in the same situation.

FYI, in the actual hand, I folded to the flop raise. The villain eventually showed down KK. UTG had A8s. Ironically, the river was a 9, so I would have won the hand had I stuck around. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Of course it's silly to base whether or not I made a correct decision based on the results of a particular hand.

Based on FTP I made a correct decision to fold, but I wasn't sure if the decision was the right one based on the information I had at the time.

My thinking was that the hand was going to cost at least 2.5BB (0.5 to call the raise and the likely turn and river bets) to stick around. Also, I figured that even if I had the best hand right now, I was very susceptible to re-draws as my opponents would likely have at least overcards at this point.

[TomBrooks]

Raise preflop. Hand plays differently then.

Flop, 1st time around as played: Raise. Hand plays differently then.

Flop, coming back to you: I think I'm going to call, but I don't like it much and I think you made your decision more difficult by the way you played it.

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone so far recommended raising pre-flop. The game was pretty tight (about 3 people to a flop). In these situations SSHE recommends limping in from EP. This makes sense to me since middle pairs are much easier to play when you're aiming to spike a set, in which case you want as many people as possible in the pot.

If you think SSHE might be wrong about this, I'd be interested in hearing your opinions.

I agree, though, that I should have raised it immediately on the flop. Given that I didn't and CO is showing strength with his raise, is a fold when the action gets to me a really bad idea? Otherwise, the hand costs me a lot more since I'm effectively agreeing to stick around until a showdown (as my pocket pair is unlikely to improve).

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect situation to raise preflop. 99 is not that strong so fold the table and get it heads up when 99 will be much more likely to win without needing to make a set. That KK would have probably three bet. Then on the flop, bet and if you get raised you can probably fold, although that is a little tough with an overpair. I don't think many will raise that low card rainbow flop with AK.

On the flop if UTG bets and you raise and get three bet, you can fold. As played, if you raise and get three bet you can fold.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
The game was pretty tight

[/ QUOTE ]

This is even more to reason to raise pf. 99 plays very well HU or even 3 handed.

[pokernicus]

From EP where do you think I should draw the line between raising and limping? Is 88 generally strong enough to raise, or am I in limp territory?

In general, what factors should I consider when deciding to limp versus raise a pocket pair in early position? (Advice on middle and late position is also welcome.)

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
From EP where do you think I should draw the line between raising and limping? Is 88 generally strong enough to raise, or am I in limp territory?

[/ QUOTE ]
Usually limp 88 in EP. Open raise 88 from MP on tight tables where you expect to sometimes get the blinds or get it heads up.

[car ramrod]

[ QUOTE ]
From EP where do you think I should draw the line between raising and limping? Is 88 generally strong enough to raise, or am I in limp territory?



[/ QUOTE ]

I usually draw the line at 77. But it depends on the type of table I am playing. If it is tight I raise 77 or 88, if it is loose and passive I limp 77 or 88.

[ QUOTE ]
In general, what factors should I consider when deciding to limp versus raise a pocket pair in early position? (Advice on middle and late position is also welcome.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said before if the table is very loose/passive feel free to limp more pairs, that goes for ep and mp. In late position I will raise a pp if a lot of people are in to build a big pot for our set. If the table is very tight, I want to raise my pp and get it shorthanded. If you are comfortable playing pp, then I would raise 77+, if not maybe stick to 99+. PP are very profitable when played correctly, and not just playing them fit or fold.

Edit: I will look up a great link for you to read about pp that Entity wrote a while back. Unless anyone has it handy and can post it.