All-in preflop with AK?

The problem with the article is it doesn't even mention how deep the stacks are (and he must have made some assumption if he was able to do those calculations correctly). What if the whole table has 300bb or 500bb or 1000bb? Do they call your all ins with AK/AQ/JJ/TT now when they think that they are either big dogs or coinflips? Or do they call it only with AA and KK, hands you are big dogs against? What's the point in risking 1000bb to try and win 4.5?

There is a reason TJ calls AK "Walking back to Houston". All those Houston players were used to putting it all in with AK and getting called by QQ/JJ. When they went up to Dallas, they put it all in with AK and only got called by AA. Putting it all in with AK in deep stack NL is a certain way to be walking back to Houston.

[illegit]

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I like the push as well.

Read this if you've got the time

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Taken from the site:
If we move in (jam), I’m going to assume that the UTG player mucks his sevens, eights, nines, A-J suited, and A-Q offsuit, but calls us with A-Q suited, A-K, and pairs of tens or higher.

At the $25 level in a MTT, the calling range to an all-in seems to be any hand. Also, isn't the goal in a MTT to build up as many chips as possible rather than getting your chips in with a better hand? It seems like it would be very hard to make it to the final table when you're forcing yourself into coinflip situations. Why not see the flop and outplay your opponents from there?

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By 'outplay' him on the flop do you mean fold when you miss your hand and he bets? Even if he might be betting a weaker hand? Or a hand that you could have beaten if you had gotten to see all 5 cards instead of just the first 3? You outplay your opponents when you take advantage of your edges and AK with shallow stacks plays best when you can get all your chips in as the aggressor.

A push here is a fine play as a standard raise will put you in an awkward position if you miss the flop.
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All those Houston players were used to putting it all in with AK and getting called by QQ/JJ. When they went up to Dallas, they put it all in with AK and only got called by AA. Putting it all in with AK in deep stack NL is a certain way to be walking back to Houston.

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I wonder what they call QQ when it loses to AK all-in preflop?

[tdomeski]

Yeah I'm with Exitonly on this one. .I can't fold AK in fear of coinflip when I get shown AQ, AJ time after time after time. I don't know what people are thinking when they are laying down AK in spots like this (or just calling for that matter).

so im the hero in the previously described hand by user beeny.
however, let me clarify some things. i had the 3.7k chip stack and the villain had the 2.3 k. i played relatively few hands all night and UTG was the most reckless player at our table by far.
i was chip leader or maybe 2nd in chips when i was dealt the AK off. figured could steal 375 i chips if no one called my all in. even with a caller, i would dominate/coin flip with any hands except AA or KK.
was i right in pushing my AK all in?

[btw i lost this hand to a K9o call by UTG. he turned a 9]

[Exitonly]

uh yea, the stack sizes switching like that changes dramatically.. Pushing 30Bb's is probably not the best way to play the hand, though if UTG will call with K9o allin, maybe it is. But you can't count on that.

Raise to 500, bet 700 on any flop (assuming you're against 1 or 2 guys, 3 or more and i check a flop that i miss)

[durrrr]

pushing > limping > raising (to 600) > folding

[Exitonly]

with the old stack sizes, taht sounds about right...

with the new ones, it's

raising > calling > pushing > folding

[nath]

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At the $25 level in a MTT, the calling range to an all-in seems to be any hand. Also, isn't the goal in a MTT to build up as many chips as possible rather than getting your chips in with a better hand? It seems like it would be very hard to make it to the final table when you're forcing yourself into coinflip situations. Why not see the flop and outplay your opponents from there?

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Please tell me your plan for "outplaying your opponent". Is it going to win you the pot more often? Is it going to win you more chips? Is it more profitable than, say, going all-in with a hand that is a strong favorite against a loose player's range?


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I personally don't think that the blinds are big enough at this stage to warrant pushing in. I want to make hands like these pay me off and would be looking for a call to get some extra chips.

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You miss with AK too often to be angling for a call. Are you going to be "paid off" if the flop is 9-6-3 rainbow or are you just going to lose all your chips or check-fold?

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Chances are that the guy UTG will fold to your all-in and you'll miss out on valuable chips.

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And I gain the pot, right now. I can worry about what I potentially missed but I also could have just as easily lost a bunch of chips if I whiffed the flop. I want to win the pot now or give myself the best chance to win if I am called.

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Alternatively, someone behind you wakes up with a monster and sends you out. Finally imagine this scenario.....UTG + 3 calls all-in and then UTG calls after him. If you have raised up to 500 you can easily get away from the losing hand.

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Yeah, I suppose that's possible. Any more monsters under the bed? I mean, AA behind could call all in, and KK overcall all-in, and then our loose UTG player says "What the hell let's gamble" and calls with his 95 suited and spikes trip 9s on the flop... we can invent bustout scenarios all day to keep us afraid of putting our chips in.

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How to play on the flop depends very much on who and how many call your 500 re-raise. A lot if it comes down to feel for the table and how the first position guy plays out. At least you have options and a good chance of taking home some more chips!

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Your stack is not very big. You DON'T have very many options.

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To be honest, I wouldn't like a call from a loose player who flat calls UTG then calls an all-in.

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Why not? Do you think you are behind his range with AK? Seriously? Or are you just afraid to be all-in?


Soon I'm going to have to write a treatise entitled "The Coinflip Fallacy: Why You Shouldn't Avoid Potential Races." I just can't get over the number of posters on this site that are always looking for reasons to fold their AK and pairs because they're afraid of "putting my tournament life on the line on a coinflip," a fearful strategy that ignores the reality of the math of hand ranges and what it actually takes to win large tournaments, among other things.
You can't win tournaments by being afraid, no matter how ridiculously awesome a postflop player you think you are.
"Without courage, all virtues lose their meaning." -Winston Churchill

great response and analysis, nath, i enjoyed your article and completely agree with you.

[twang]

Nath,
very nice article. Others in this thread have mentioned the stack size issue. I suppose you don't advocate this move if the stacks are huge. In the example from the article you have 15xbb. At what stack size(s) would you say going all-in with AK is the best default move?

Would a situation with bigger stacks translate to moving in way over top of the initial raiser, instead of all-in? (Example: UTG with 45 bb raises 4 bb. Hero with 35 bb calls and re-raises another 10 bb or so.)