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#12
10-13-2005, 03:54 PM
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Re: Check Check Raised
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] fold the river. river check raise is almost never a bluff. good bet on the river for value but fold to the raise. [/ QUOTE ] I generally agree with this statement too, but considering how the WHOLE hand was played, you think this is a fold? [/ QUOTE ] I dont know. people do illogical things. what hands can he be bluffing with here? missed KT? you already have 2 Ks. hands like AQ likely calls your river bet. 
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#13
10-13-2005, 04:00 PM
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Re: Check Check Raised
With the check min raise check turn line on this board, I put my opponent on one of two things:
1. Some kind of top pair/second pair good kicker hand (AQ, AJ, KQ) 2. A hand that is beating me pretty badly (QQ, JJ, QJ, 22) If he has hand #1, I'll either get value on the turn or he'll fold. I also give him a chance to fold and avoid the small consideration of a Q, J, or A sliding off. If he has hand #2, I'll get check-raised again and I can just insta-dump. By playing it the way he did, if villain has hand #1 he'll likely lead the river for a small bet as a blocker/value bet. I won't want to re-open the action with a raise so I'll miss value that I could have instead gotten on the turn. If villain has hand #2, he'll typically lead for 3/4 to full pot on the river, and I might be inclined to call because there's no reason he can't have AQ here. Now in this actual scenario the villain took a very tricky line (and he probably would indeed have been c/r on the turn had he bet thus saving money), but we are talking about standard plays.
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#14
10-13-2005, 04:24 PM
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Re: Check Check Raised
Yeah, I was thinking based on how bad the hand played that his range could be KJ, AJ, AQ or even some under PP. There are a lot of hands that hero is beating and only 2 maybe 3 that he isn't.
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#15
10-13-2005, 04:54 PM
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Re: Check Check Raised
it seems the only advantage is to get the additional value between the turn 3/4 pot and the river blocking bet he would have made if you checked behind.
problem is. with hands like AJ, often he is not calling a turn 3/4 pot so I'm not sure how much additional value you are getting here. with the info portion of betting the turn, we have to be almost certain that villain will only check raise the turn with hands that we beat. what if he checkraises all in with AQ? what if he calls your turn bet, pushes river giving you almost 4:1 on the call? basically I'm not sure the small amount of additional value that you get out of betting the turn for 3/4 vs calling his say 1/2 blocking bet on the river had you checked behind is worth the possibility of folding the best hand or getting stacked when he has a monster. Also your last argument about me having to call a 3/4 pot bet on the river because he could possibly do it with AQ runs counter to your additional value argument earlier.
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#16
10-13-2005, 06:30 PM
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Re: Check Check Raised
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: On second thought I could see myself play AA this way, so maybe that's what he got [/ QUOTE ] Pleeeeease tell me you're joking. This would be an absolutely atrocious line for AA.
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#17
10-13-2005, 06:41 PM
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Re: Check Check Raised
Haha, you're right, it is horrible. To my defense I thought UTGs raise was a full 4*BB and that he had gotten re-raised big. Here he could decide to just call to get other guy (here Hero) allin on turn or river with a little slowplay.
I'm getting curious, did Hero call? and what did other guy have?
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