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#11
10-12-2005, 04:56 PM
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Re: I play A6o aggressively
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Also, for those who didn't like the raise PF, do you just call? I have trouble entering pots on the button with only one limper and not raising. I need to work on it. [/ QUOTE ] I think the alternative to raising is folding, and for me, it's a tossed salad as to what I want to do pf. [/ QUOTE ] Yea, I find my thinking in this spot leands towards the logic that raising or folding is better than calling. I understand the dilemma though because A6 might be the best hand at moment so folding is hard. But at the same time A6 four handed is no picnic. It is hard to weigh reverse implied odds and implied odds before a flop, but can that type of thinking be applied here? 
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#13
10-12-2005, 05:13 PM
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Re: I play A6o aggressively
Very nice hand.
The turn is a great place to raise. My thought is this: if we raise, we put in two big bets, and so do the SB and the fishy BB. If we call and plan to call the river, we put in two big bets, as likely does SB, but maybe fishy BB misses his gutshot or whatever and does a shuffle-shuffle-muck kinda deal. If we're going to showdown we need to do so in the way that best exploits the value we get from the presence of the BB. Pre-flop is thin but it's certainly not horrible and certainly is fun.
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#14
10-12-2005, 05:20 PM
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Re: I play A6o aggressively
[ QUOTE ]
What is the flop bet supposed to accomplish? It won't win the pot for you...It might get you a free card with a 3-outer but I don't think anyone is letting you see a showdown without putting at least one more bet in with A-high. [/ QUOTE ] I think checking the flop here would be a pretty big mistake. That bet alone may well get us heads-up with the fishy BB and that's a good result. Getting a free river card is a good result as well.
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#15
10-12-2005, 06:02 PM
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Re: I play A6o aggressively
[ QUOTE ]
The turn is a great place to raise. My thought is this: if we raise, we put in two big bets, and so do the SB and the fishy BB. If we call and plan to call the river, we put in two big bets, as likely does SB, but maybe fishy BB misses his gutshot or whatever and does a shuffle-shuffle-muck kinda deal. [/ QUOTE ] Remember this reasoning next time Rob is feeling down or dejected, then say it out loud. Evidently he will laugh his ass off, because Rob apparently is very very easily amused. Or on weed.
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#16
10-12-2005, 06:04 PM
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Re: I play A6o aggressively
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The turn is a great place to raise. My thought is this: if we raise, we put in two big bets, and so do the SB and the fishy BB. If we call and plan to call the river, we put in two big bets, as likely does SB, but maybe fishy BB misses his gutshot or whatever and does a shuffle-shuffle-muck kinda deal. [/ QUOTE ] Remember this reasoning next time Rob is feeling down or dejected, then say it out loud. Evidently he will laugh his ass off, because Rob apparently is very very easily amused. Or on weed. [/ QUOTE ] I vote weed. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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#17
10-12-2005, 06:19 PM
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Re: I play A6o aggressively
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The turn is a great place to raise. My thought is this: if we raise, we put in two big bets, and so do the SB and the fishy BB. If we call and plan to call the river, we put in two big bets, as likely does SB, but maybe fishy BB misses his gutshot or whatever and does a shuffle-shuffle-muck kinda deal. [/ QUOTE ] Remember this reasoning next time Rob is feeling down or dejected, then say it out loud. Evidently he will laugh his ass off, because Rob apparently is very very easily amused. Or on weed. [/ QUOTE ] I wrote what I wrote because I'm tired of seeing people who have the ability to be a decent poker player say "cuz calling sucks right here." There are advantages and disadvantages to each, but 2+2's raise or fold mantra gets into so many people's heads that they think that raising has to be better than calling for no particular reason. I'm curious what range you put SB on after his check-call and then bet into a passive calling station and into the PFR when the Ace fell on the turn. Personally, I think it's a lot closer to a call or a fold situation, rather than a raise or fold situation. I'm not particularly sure what draw SB might play this way -- his flop and turn lines are pretty incongruous. I mostly love the fact that you said 'calling here sucks,' when in fact, it doesn't suck. It's a reasonably close decision for all three options, and in situations like that, sans any additional information, I don't think throwing more chips at the board is going to be significantly better than seeing a river, and according river action, at the very least. Rob
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#18
10-12-2005, 06:56 PM
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Re: I play A6o aggressively
I think it is quite possible that he has a pair on the flop, puts you on overs and think you are just using position. He may very well have two pair, but I would expect him to three bet the turn there. It is also likely he has a worse Ace, called flop position bet, and is afraid of you checking behind since he doesn't know you have the ace, so he leads his ace.
I feel like raise and calling are both much better than folding here. I liked Deranged's point that raising you get more value out of BB when you are ahead, so I think you can bet here. If you are behind it should become abundantly clear, no?
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#19
10-12-2005, 07:21 PM
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Re: I play A6o aggressively
I have to agree with Entity on this one. The read on SB is "a fairly tight/solid player". Yes he may realize what you are trying to do PF and lower his calling standards some. However, how often are we ahead when he leads this turn. Charging BB to draw and collect his bets now is a great principal but does it benifit us or SB. I just don't think a tight player gets involved with A5 and terrible position. Change the read on SB to a little looser, tricky etc. then I can understand raising the turn a little better.
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#20
10-12-2005, 07:33 PM
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Re: I play A6o aggressively
[ QUOTE ]
I have to agree with Entity on this one. The read on SB is "a fairly tight/solid player". Yes he may realize what you are trying to do PF and lower his calling standards some. However, how often are we ahead when he leads this turn. Charging BB to draw and collect his bets now is a great principal but does it benifit us or SB. I just don't think a tight player gets involved with A5 and terrible position. Change the read on SB to a little looser, tricky etc. then I can understand raising the turn a little better. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're sort of missing the point of the raise. Basically, if we are going to showdown here, we are intending to put in a bet now and on the river. So calling here is committing to put in two BB more (we're not drawing). The turn bettor may occassionally check the river when he has a better hand, but that won't happen often, and when he checks we may decide to bet ourselves. So, the idea is that two bets more are very likely to go in. If we call now and call the river, we forgo a chance to extract money from the fishy BB since some of the time he'll fold the river but is very unlikely to fold the turn. Obviously, much of the time the money that comes from BB goes to the SB when he has us beat, but when we are ahead it goes to us. A final thought is that we are unlikely to get three-bet or donked into by a hand we can beat. What this adds up to is the fact that, if we are intending to call and therefore commit to putting in two more BB, it is almost certainly better to put those two BB in on the turn rather than the river. It may well be that we shouldn't even consider going to showdown because our hand isn't good enough. But, if we do decide it's good enough to show it down, I think there are clear reasons why we should put our bets in on the turn and not the turn and the river. I think what may be confusing some people is that they are only thinking of raising here in terms of "do we have a raise for value?" I'm advocating raising here not so much for value in a strict sense (we may actually not have 33% equity here on average). Instead, I'm thinking in terms of the turn and river as one street, and choosing to get to showdown with a raise rather than two calls. In fact, if we are confident we can get to a showdown for two bets by raising, it is quite possible that raising is correct in situations when we have equity less than 33%.
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