OK, help me to not suck

[NutNoPair]

In this situation I want the following things.

1)I want to see a showdown
2)I want worse hands to continue betting
3)I want better hands to make as little as possible

I would have check-called it down also. There are a variety of hands that you can beat, that he can continue to bet. Making tough lay downs on the river, especially in a multi-way low limit game, is no way to make money. I think planning to do this is a bad habit.

Checking and calling isn't always wrong.

[Homer]

1) I want to see a showdown

Why? If you are *sure* you are beaten then folding to a bet on the river is correct. I can see it being important to get to showdown when against a tricky opponent, but against most opponents, if you cap the flop and you opponent continues betting on the turn and river, you can safely fold to the river bet, assuming you have not improved.

Note - When I say sure I mean that your chances of winning (obviously you must approximate this) are less than the pot odds being offered.

2) I want worse hands to continue betting

This argument has some merit, since we are heads-up with position, with a hand that has good showdown value.

However, there aren't many worse hands that an opponent will be betting with after three-betting you on the flop from out of position.

3) I want better hands to make as little as possible

My suggested play causes a better hand to make less money.

Pretend you are the opponent and have KT or K9. You bet the flop and three-bet a late position player (Hero). If he caps, what will you do on the turn and river? You might bet out on the turn and if he calls the turn bet, there is a good chance you will check the river and let Hero check it through. Even if you bet the river, Hero will fold based on the information he gained from capping (he capped and you still bet out on the turn). You may also check the turn, in which case Hero will check it through and call a bet from you on the river. Thus, if Hero caps, he is putting exactly 2 big bets in the pot (1 to cap flop plus 1 on either turn or river) regardless of your actions from that point on. If Hero does not cap the flop, you will surely bet the turn and river, and he will put a total of 2.5 additional big bets in the pot.

So, better hands will make less if Hero caps the flop. Also, Hero will make more money this way if he makes a straight on the turn.

Note that this is meaningless if you absolutely must see a showdown (and again, I'm not sure why you must).


Any feedback is appreciated...

-- Homer

[Louie Landale]

Even if you don't remember, just make something up, since it matters less what you should have done during that hand and it matters more what you should do in those sorts of situations.

[NutNoPair]

Just how *sure* are you.

Getting to the river in this hand will cost you 1 extra small bet.

Pre-flop there are five+ small bets in the pot. Actually, there was more, but lets talk about the situation as it was originally posted.

On the turn, an additional seven small bets bring the total to over twelve.

On the turn, you are up to sixteen.

On the river we have eighteen.

So sure, if you can make a 90%+ read on a player who you know nothing about, more power to you. I’ll spend the extra small-bet in case he’s pushing KJ, AQ, 78, 9J, or the other possible draws.

Raising for information rarely yields information worth the price you are paying. Folding on the river to justify a raise on the flop is ludicrous. If I knew the opponent, and the opponent knew me, than I think the raise might have some free card value.

I’m not saying this is how the hand should be played, I’m just saying if I had to choose between the two I would have played it as the poster did.

[Homer]

Just how *sure* are you.

I would be very confident in folding if I capped the flop and my opponent still bet into me on the turn and river.

Getting to the river in this hand will cost you 1 extra small bet.

How do you figure? If you intend to call on the river regardless of the action to that point, then yes, otherwise no.

Folding on the river to justify a raise on the flop is ludicrous.

It sure is. I wouldn't fold on the river to justify the flop raise. I would fold on the river because of the information gained from the flop raise (cap).

I'm not sure why you think I would fold on the river to justify a flop raise. If you think I play with such ass backwards logic, you obviously don't know anything about me.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

-- Homer

[34TheTruth34]

I have to agree with Homer on this. When you cap the flop, and he bets into you on the turn and river after blanks come, against a typical opponent your KQ is no good here. That's why you reraise the flop bet. There is no need to see a showdown if you know you are behind. Good players don't call the river just to see what hand beat them. Who cares if it's AA, KK, TT, 99, AK, KT, K9, or QJ???

Against a real tricky player, I prefer the way the poster played the hand, just calling it down, but those opponents are few and far between at these levels.