Common situation

[flawless_victory]

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What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

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You have an OESD on a rainbow flop, and hand with pretty good implied odds, with 7 players in and you are trying to shut out the field? I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]the pot is already huge and hes trying to win it. who knows if the field will collapse and youll win by firing away, or more likely win w/ one pair.
automatic raise for me.

[stoxtrader]

I think if you actually tried to value "cleaning up your outs" and "winning by firing on every street" vs drawing cheaply and getting extra bets if you hit you would find its not close and the correct play is to call.

I honestly dont know for sure, and the calculation is certainly difficult, but "cleaning up" a dubious 3 outer in the pot I think would be worthwhile if the pot was maybe 20-25 SB or so when you account for ooportunity cost.

[elindauer]

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I think if you actually tried to value "cleaning up your outs" and "winning by firing on every street" vs drawing cheaply and getting extra bets if you hit you would find its not close and the correct play is to call.

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I think you may be ignoring that, should his attempt to isolate fail, a flop raise will lose very little or even be for value.

I see only good things when he raises. He gets it heads up and improves his odds of winning unimproved / with 1 pair, OR he gets a call or two and builds a pot with a nice draw.

I concede that my first instinct was that it was close though, maybe I'm just talking myself into it.

good luck.
eric

[ihardlyknowher]

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What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

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You have an OESD on a rainbow flop, and hand with pretty good implied odds, with 7 players in and you are trying to shut out the field? I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]the pot is already huge and hes trying to win it. who knows if the field will collapse and youll win by firing away, or more likely win w/ one pair.
automatic raise for me.

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"Huge" is a bit of an overstatement. Also, IF your play works, you are adding at most 2-3 outs to your hand. This adds about 10% to your chances to win (value based on the current "huge" pot size = 0.7BB), but it is costing you an extra 0.5 BB right now to try it, with no guarantees it will work.

[Ulysses]

I like a call because by calling you allow guys w/ reverse implied odds to stay in. I am pretty sure that is worth more than cleaning up your pair outs in this specific situation. This is interesting enough that I might actually do a little math later, but my gut tells me calling is the way to go here.

[Robb]

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I think if you actually tried to value "cleaning up your outs" and "winning by firing on every street" vs drawing cheaply and getting extra bets if you hit you would find its not close and the correct play is to call.

I honestly dont know for sure, and the calculation is certainly difficult, but "cleaning up" a dubious 3 outer in the pot I think would be worthwhile if the pot was maybe 20-25 SB or so when you account for ooportunity cost.

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But you have an inverse relationship between pot size and calling frequency. I think it makes less sense in a 25 BB pot to raise to clean up your outs because no one is folding.

In my hand, there's also a small chance catching a nine will beat the flop bettor.

[mc1023]

if the pot was 20-25 SB I think you can clearly raise for value since no one will likely fold, but in this case I really think your not getting a fold out of him and you are most likely in fact drawing just to a OESD that will not win unimproved.

[Robb]

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if the pot was 20-25 SB I think you can clearly raise for value since no one will likely fold, but in this case I really think your not getting a fold out of him and you are most likely in fact drawing just to a OESD that will not win unimproved.

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I wasn't implying you can't raise for value in a 20-25 BB pot.

In this hand, just because he probably won't fold a pair doesn't necessarily mean it's not right to raise.

[Robb]

Someone won.

[obi---one]

would you rather be heads up and pay three bets on the flop, or pay one bet and have 5 people on the flop? This looks like a call and I don't think it is very close.