vulnerable hand: wait for the turn? - Page 2

surfdoc · #11 10-03-2005, 06:42 PM

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Pop the flop he might three bet, when you just call if he's thinking at all he thinks you probably have overcards, so, he may check a "scary" turn and you lose that value.

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I agree with this. There's a place for waiting until the turn to raise for value but it's usually in bigger pots with more opponents, when your flop edge is likely not very strong. In this case, your flop edge is likely very very strong and you're missing bets by not raising.

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This hand is very close to a hand from SSHE (page 187) with the exception that the pot is not yet very large. I think this is a very close decision and thats is why I posted it. My equity on the turn changes so much that I really wanted to get my raise in then. This is as much a ploy to maximize value as raising the flop. Part of the decision is knowing just how bad these guys are.

I can understand those that say that an overcard will scare them but that is okay because it will scare me too. The gamble is that when another baby card comes off I will get two double bets out of both the donks. For those of you saying he won't bet the turn clearly you don't play in this game often. This guy fires at a blank turn 100% of the time because he is certain I have overs. (that is just how they think)

This reminds me of the movie Colors with sean penn and robert duvall. The exact details are hard to remember but duvall is the old guy and he tells the yound guy (penn), "there are two bulls sitting on the top of a hill. The young one says let run down into the valley and fucck one of those cows. The old one says lets walk down there and fuuck them all!"

surfdoc · #12 10-03-2005, 06:45 PM

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This looks fine to me. I usually alternate between a flop raise and a turn raise. The thing that makes turn raises so appealing in this game is that everyone seems to pay them off all the way to the river.

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This is very true. There are no laydowns made by donks. That is why there appear to be so many suckouts. They go to the river like always with any piece of the board. Wait until you see the rest of the hand.

StellarWind · #13 10-04-2005, 03:52 AM

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This hand is very close to a hand from SSHE (page 187) with the exception that the pot is not yet very large. I think this is a very close decision and thats is why I posted it. My equity on the turn changes so much that I really wanted to get my raise in then.

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This argument does not apply to this hand.

Your hand is so good that you probably need to raise any turn card even though you may be nervous. Once you realize that it becomes obvious that this hand is not like p. 187. It's not just a smaller pot size. It's fewer opponents behaving in a much less scary fashion. Certainly the turn card may change your pot equity but that's irrelevant because you cannot allow that information to stop you from raising.

The correct play depends on how your opponents are likely to play the turn. Based on the information you originally provided I would raise the flop. At the table I would be influenced by my feel for the opponents. If I felt that my "obvious overcards" would be ruthlessly attacked then I would go for the trap call.

I sense that you had a feeling like this but it didn't really come through in the hand post.

surfdoc · #14 10-04-2005, 01:44 PM

Here is the entire hand if anyone is interested. I think the best part is the river overcall by UTG with 33. Game selection, baby.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (10.70 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 13.70 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has As 9c (one pair, nines).
UTG has 3d 3h (one pair, threes).
Hero has Tc Th (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.70 BB.