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#11
09-28-2005, 03:46 PM
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Re: Good use of the turn donk?
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter if they call or fold. Protecting your hand happens when you put someone in a position where they lose (i.e., their choice is to fold or call incorrectly). If they have to put two bets in on the turn when they only have the odds to put in one, they've lost. When you put them in this situation, you've protected your hand. It doesn't matter whether they know they'll have to put in two or not. Even if they have odds to call the first bet, they shouldn't because that means they'll have to put in another one. We've made our opponents make a mistake. We've protected our hand. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with your choice of words and terminology. I don't disagree with your method. 
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#13
09-28-2005, 03:49 PM
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Re: Good use of the turn donk?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It doesn't matter if they call or fold. Protecting your hand happens when you put someone in a position where they lose (i.e., their choice is to fold or call incorrectly). If they have to put two bets in on the turn when they only have the odds to put in one, they've lost. When you put them in this situation, you've protected your hand. It doesn't matter whether they know they'll have to put in two or not. Even if they have odds to call the first bet, they shouldn't because that means they'll have to put in another one. We've made our opponents make a mistake. We've protected our hand. [/ QUOTE ] I disagree with your choice of words and terminology. I don't disagree with your method. [/ QUOTE ] Furthermore, with flush and straight possibilities on the turn and the size of the pot at that point it's quite likely that at least one of the opponents is not making a mistake by calling 1 bet - or even 2. It is, however, a mistake for Hero (who we assume holds the best hand) not to gain value from these drawing hands with correct odds.
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#14
09-28-2005, 03:51 PM
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Re: Good use of the turn donk?
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with your choice of words and terminology. I don't disagree with your method. [/ QUOTE ] Fair enough. I actually meant to include something similar at the end of my post, but forgot. I think we're choosing the same play for the same reason here.
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#15
09-28-2005, 04:07 PM
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Re: Good use of the turn donk?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I disagree with your choice of words and terminology. I don't disagree with your method. [/ QUOTE ] Fair enough. I actually meant to include something similar at the end of my post, but forgot. I think we're choosing the same play for the same reason here. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure. Protecting you hands generally refers to taking advantage of a betting/raising opportunity to force people with draws against you out of the pot (typically in a big pot). Betting/raising for value generally refers to leading out, raising behind or check-raising hands that you know you are ahead of but will call anyways. I think this is a "c/r for value" situation.
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#16
09-28-2005, 04:21 PM
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Re: Good use of the turn donk?
[ QUOTE ]
Protecting you hands generally refers to taking advantage of a betting/raising opportunity to force people with draws against you out of the pot (typically in a big pot). Betting/raising for value generally refers to leading out, raising behind or check-raising hands that you know you are ahead of but will call anyways. I think this is a "c/r for value" situation. [/ QUOTE ] OK, I think this is all a matter of semantics, but... I define protecting your hand as putting your opponent in a completely bad situation. Make her choices a) fold and lose the equity she has in the pot, or b) make a -EV call. The essence is that your opponent loses money either way. I define betting for value as increasing your $ equity in the pot. For example, if a bet makes the pot grow by 4 BB and you have 50% equity, your bet is for value: Your equity was $X, now it's $X + 4BB * 50% - 1BB. You get value when you bet and somebody calls when you have enough equity regardless of whether that's a good call or not from their prospective. I don't see how the path (leading, check-raising, etc.) matters; all that matters is the results.
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#17
09-28-2005, 04:29 PM
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Re: Good use of the turn donk?
Not to be pedantic, but in this situation you aren't protecting your hand by check-raising MP2, since the players you're protecting it from will call MP2s bet prior to your raise.
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#19
09-28-2005, 04:36 PM
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Re: Good use of the turn donk?
[ QUOTE ]
Not to be pedantic, but in this situation you aren't protecting your hand by check-raising MP2, since the players you're protecting it from will call MP2s bet prior to your raise. [/ QUOTE ] I'd say that you are, but I guess it depends on your definition. Just because your opponent doesn't know he'll have to call a second bet doesn't mean that he won't have to. I think protection all comes down to whether or not calling a bet is profitable. When calling the first bet is unprofitable (and it is here since you'll check-raise), you've protected your hand.
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#20
09-28-2005, 04:48 PM
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Re: Good use of the turn donk?
[ QUOTE ]
When the action is that multiway I just go ahead and 3-bet the flop and then lead the turn. You really need to be beating this river. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with the flop three bet, but I'm not too excited about betting this river. on the flop there were two straight draws with either 89 or 45 and on the turn there was a flush draw. Every single one of those came in. Can we really put all of our opponnents on a middle pair or a worse king that they put in two bets on the flop with? I'm fine with putting one bet in on this river but I'd like to check and see if any fish wants to make it 2. -WT
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