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#11
09-20-2005, 04:21 PM
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Re: J10 on the button multiway, flop middle pair
Flop raise was perfect, if you're not going to fold, then all you do by calling is make your hand that much weaker. In low-limit online games, this has to be a play you make 100% of the time, if you choose to stay in the hand.
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#12
09-20-2005, 04:30 PM
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Re: J10 on the button multiway, flop middle pair
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Right idea, just wrong time to use it. I dont think the pots big enough to make this play worth while. Unless the bettor is a total douche, I'm folding the flop due to the vulnerability of your hand, and the cleanliness of your outs. [/ QUOTE ] I think I disagree, I think the flop raise (if you choose to employ it) is to *clean up* your outs AND potentially get a free card. It is the wrong time to use it if the table is full of calling stations where this play will not work. The OP's position is the best (hes on the button). Heres my take (from the start): Raise preflop, you have good position and a hand that plays multiway very well. On the flop, its either raise or fold. Lacking reads (and with ppl usually playing Ax at this level), villain likely has an ace. Your raise is to 1) clear the field and 2) hopefully get a free card on the turn (get a card cheaper). You do this if you think the rest of the field aren't donks who'd call 2 cold (and if villain is not overly aggressive to 3 bet you back). Assuming you raised Turn: Check behind! I don't think you're ahead, take that free card. River: Check behind if checked to. If bet to, I might fold unless villain is prone to bluffing in this situation. (this changes if you improved to 2 pair or trips obviously) Thoughts? [/ QUOTE ] I think the problem with taking the free card on the turn is that it looks like I'm betting a flush draw on the flop and if villain is at all aware of that he may bet the river with a small pair or a bluff which puts us in a tough spot. On the flip side, we may be betting his weak Ace for him if we bet the turn. I'm torn here. I was new to the table so I didn't have a read which would be nice here and I usually err on the aggressive side against an unknown who's playing passively, though this may have not been the best spot to be aggressive.
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#13
09-20-2005, 04:43 PM
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Re: J10 on the button multiway, flop middle pair
[ QUOTE ]
I think the problem with taking the free card on the turn is that it looks like I'm betting a flush draw on the flop and if villain is at all aware of that he may bet the river with a small pair or a bluff which puts us in a tough spot. On the flip side, we may be betting his weak Ace for him if we bet the turn. I'm torn here. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're incorrectly assuming the villain is incorrectly reading your hand (read that again carefully). But that I mean - you do NOT raise on a flush draw if you actually had one in this case. Thats a terrible play. I absolutely would just call if villain bet on the flop if you had a flush draw because you have 35% chance of making it by the river and want more ppl to come along to fund your draw, not be forcing ppl to face 2 cold. You want 3 or more customers to make your draw profitable since you have 35% pot equity.
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#14
09-20-2005, 05:00 PM
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Re: J10 on the button multiway, flop middle pair
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I think the problem with taking the free card on the turn is that it looks like I'm betting a flush draw on the flop and if villain is at all aware of that he may bet the river with a small pair or a bluff which puts us in a tough spot. On the flip side, we may be betting his weak Ace for him if we bet the turn. I'm torn here. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're incorrectly assuming the villain is incorrectly reading your hand (read that again carefully). But that I mean - you do NOT raise on a flush draw if you actually had one in this case. Thats a terrible play. I absolutely would just call if villain bet on the flop if you had a flush draw because you have 35% chance of making it by the river and want more ppl to come along to fund your draw, not be forcing ppl to face 2 cold. You want 3 or more customers to make your draw profitable since you have 35% pot equity. [/ QUOTE ] Good point, so our strategy on the flop is to raise and take the free card on the turn, and . . . 1a. call a bet on the river 2a. fold to a bet on the river 1b. bet to his check 2b. check to his check
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#15
09-20-2005, 05:06 PM
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Re: J10 on the button multiway, flop middle pair
[ QUOTE ]
I think I disagree, I think the flop raise (if you choose to employ it) is to *clean up* your outs AND potentially get a free card. [/ QUOTE ] What outs are you cleaning? and why on earth would you take a free card? If you think youre behind, you should be folding this on the flop considering the size of this pathetic pot. [ QUOTE ] On the flop, its either raise or fold. [/ QUOTE ] I'm with you on that one, calling is no good
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#16
09-20-2005, 05:24 PM
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Re: J10 on the button multiway, flop middle pair
[ QUOTE ]
What outs are you cleaning? and why on earth would you take a free card? If you think youre behind, you should be folding this on the flop considering the size of this pathetic pot. [/ QUOTE ] Outs - Well you might get an early position person to dump his KQ, KT, QT or even JT to fold to a raise. You've brought up a good point about the size of the pot. You can argue that pots too small to pull this move (or maybe I have 6 max syndrome [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) BUT by the time villain bets there are 7 SB. If you assume the free card play works, essentially the pot after the flop will be 10SB or 5BB. You likely have 5 outs or 20% of making it by the river and you're getting a crack at winning 5BB (or maybe more if you improve and villain bets, and I assign no outs to backdoor straight draw) for 1BB (cost of your play). So its NOT that bad buddy! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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#18
09-20-2005, 05:46 PM
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Re: Results
doh! I'm not changing my river recommendation because I saw your results: check behind or fold to a bet(unless you improve).
If he bets, hes likely to have an ace and less likely to have a T. So you're calling likely to lose or to split, let it go. A busted draw would unlikely bluff the river (unless you have a read), so check check you'd take it down (he ain't calling your bet in this case anyway). but NOW you have a read on villain [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#19
09-20-2005, 05:58 PM
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Re: J10 on the button multiway, flop middle pair
I think I'de fold the flop here. There's so many people playing any ace and it's a small pot. If you play like you did I'de definately check behind on the turn. (It makes calling on the river less bad too cus you might've induced a bluff)
If you want to play more aggresive I think you should've done so pre-flop, might even get an Ace to laydown with the flop check raise (probably only like 1% of the time though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), then again it might not have been bet into you on this flop..
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#20
09-20-2005, 06:09 PM
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Re: Results
[ QUOTE ]
If he bets, hes likely to have an ace and less likely to have a T. So you're calling likely to lose or to split, let it go. [/ QUOTE ] This is why taking a free turn is so stupid. If you raise the flop bet, you continue on the turn so you get a free showdown. Pretend you're villian for a second, its checked to you in LP and you bet with JT on the ATx flop (from the OP) and get raised by CO or Button. You call the bet, and villian checks behind on the turn. I'm betting any nonspade river. Even the most retarded players can read that as a missed flush draw and will proceed to bet with anything. By betting the turn, and taking the free showdown(if you choose) you prevent villian from making any moves and bluffing you out of your pot.
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