Some Concept Questions

[numeri]

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#2 also, and this is a topic i read discussion on in HUSH. if the blinds are loose and will call with any 2 cards and you have a good read on postflop and they won't "punish" you for open limping by raising you, i open limp from Button with weak offsuit Aces and some other stuff but i'm still learning this and studying it and would only suggest it after you have experience at 6-max.

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Intersting. I thought this would NEVER be correct. I will sometimes open call on the button in a tournament in this situation, but not in ring games. I might have to revise my position.

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I actually caught this topic in HEPFAP. (Is that acronym right?) It mentions that if the blinds are particularly loose, you may want to consider limping with hands that you would otherwise try to steal with. This is, of course, assuming it is folded to you on the button.

It's something I haven't yet incorporated into my game, but it's always on my mind.

[deception5]

This is page 197. It's when the blinds are extremely loose - they will both call a raise >70% of the time so it's fairly rare. But yes it can be better to limp in that situation.

[benkath1]

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This is page 197. It's when the blinds are extremely loose - they will both call a raise >70% of the time so it's fairly rare. But yes it can be better to limp in that situation.

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Is that for protection purposes later in the hand, or only for marginal steal hands(K9, Q8 and the like)? It seems if they are going to call, it would be better to raise when you have the best of it than limp and give them a free look.

[Aaron W.]

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This is page 197. It's when the blinds are extremely loose - they will both call a raise >70% of the time so it's fairly rare. But yes it can be better to limp in that situation.

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Is that for protection purposes later in the hand, or only for marginal steal hands(K9, Q8 and the like)? It seems if they are going to call, it would be better to raise when you have the best of it than limp and give them a free look.

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When you have two villains, your marginal steal hands have a very small equity edge. It's very hard to outplay two opponents at the same time postflop (even in position) and the pot is bloated to the point where villains may be drawing profitably against you when you flop no pair.

By limping preflop, you can induce villains to make postflop errors by calling without odds. You also allow keep from investing a lot of money with a tiny edge and wait for times you have a large edge.

In other words, when they are both very loose, raising preflop offers you no tactical advantages.

[fire_fly]

ok, just gotta say, i have a feeling i'm going to get reamed soooo hard for this BUT...

In contrast to what everyone else seems to be saying, I think that if the average player at the table sucks bad enough, open limping with quite a few hands is a good thing.

I'm talking if there are 2 or 3 or more 40+ vpip (and I'm currently playing 2/4, where I still see MANY of these guys) what's the point of raising KJo or ATo or pocket 6s?

If you're utg and have KJo, I think it's ok to limp. Let them come in behind you with their 87o and K4s.

Especially w/ low pp (2s-6s or 7s) limp away as long as the table is passive enough and you have bad enough players behind you. You WANT them to come in with trash so you can hit your set and make them chase their single overcard to the river while DRAWING DEAD.

And yeah, this is all talking about EARLY POSITION. Late position open raising is gOOOOOOt!

My 2c.

[Nilbud]

That's a great reply Greg and much more useful than Pedro's one line reply. In fact, I was going to post a very similar question, but the OP beat me to it.

What gives me the most trouble are the hands I'm not folding in a loose-passive game, but I don't think are good enough to raise. Hands like QTs, JTs etc. In EP, I would limp both if I think there's a good chance it won't be raised. From MP I'm folding QTs and open-limping JTs.

[CIncyHR]

This post is mouch more in line with what the hand charts seem to suggest.

My problem with open limping in EP is that you obviously have to play the hand OOP for the rest of the way. With little pairs this is OK, becuase youre playing exclusively for set value, but with hands like KJ, 99, QT, AT, etc. there are a lot of instances where you will get into tricky situations when you dont have position. It cant be right ot riase marginal stuff like this, but as a 6max player it certainly hurts to fold it, although from my limited experience folding seems like the right play.

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This is page 197. It's when the blinds are extremely loose - they will both call a raise >70% of the time so it's fairly rare. But yes it can be better to limp in that situation.

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Is that for protection purposes later in the hand, or only for marginal steal hands(K9, Q8 and the like)? It seems if they are going to call, it would be better to raise when you have the best of it than limp and give them a free look.

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Yes it is only for marginal hands that are going to be tough to play post flop if you miss. You still raise your better hands. I think the examples they give in HFAP is a6o or 55. Only if the blinds are very loose i.e. never folding. They say if you think you can steal the blinds >30% of the time you should still raise.

I do this sometimes. Especially if the blinds are not only loose but a little more aggressive post flop. That way you can punish them if you hit, but get away from the flop if it comes down bad.

[@bsolute_luck]

WARNING: DO NOT take this open-limping thing too far. DO NOT start thinking "oh well they're gonna cold call me anyways, so i'm not raising" or any other such nonsense. really it is something to THINK about and consider sometimes instead of auto-folding or auto-raising. i really caution myself and others when taking this line because it can lead to MAJOR problems later as well as missed value.

that's all, continue on peasants...

I definitely agree. I think in general you should be raising hands like 55 or a6o on the button, b/c you will fold out the blinds, or get it HU often enough for it to be the best play. I do it pretty rarely, just throwing out situations where it might enter your mind to do so.