Getting HUD software banned on Party

[Subby]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting comment, never thought of it like that. However:

1. This gives a specific advantage to people who have purchased the software (Pokertracker) and not to other players.
2. You get very specific statistics as well a computer aided autorate function (player icons).
3. Many players datamine which is hardly different to Pokeredge (now banned software).
4. There is already a notes function.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. PokerTracker is available to anyone who wants to pony up $50. There is no barrier to ownership here. It's like saying one golfer has an unfair advantage over another because he buys a better driver.

2. Specific stats have always been available via PT and the "export to notes" function. Autorate is completely overrated and about as inexact as it gets. I wouldn't use that as a plus.

3. There is a huge difference between PokerEdge and one (or a few) people datamining. There is just no comparison to the sheer number of hand histories that PE could harvest.

4. Think of HUDs as an advanced version of notes.

Anyway - you are tilting at windmills here. It won't change and your assertion that live poker should be like internet poker just doesn't jibe. They are different animals.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
I would really like to see PokerAce, PV, Gametime+ etc banned. I think they give an unfair advantage to otherwise poor players. They also make the game less like a real life, human to human game which is what Party have stated they intend to achieve.

Any thoughts on how to get these programs banned? Anyone willing to sign a petition or do an email campaign?

[/ QUOTE ]


Well obviously they should just be banned for poor players. Can you make that distinction in your petition? Maybe we could draft a poker test and anybody who passes can use a HUD and the other's not.


No joke, though, the most valuable aspect of the HUD for me is the table pot size and table VPIP average constantly displayed. I don't think that gives me an unfair advantage over anybody, can I keep that?


--Zetack

--

[teddyFBI]

[ QUOTE ]
OK GL on your bannings.

[/ QUOTE ]

office space??

[TheHammer24]

Let me guess, you don't have PT and you won't cough up the money to purchase it?

If you want to ban PT and HUDs, you would have to ban hand histories. PT and HUDs only organize data in an easily accessible and readable fashion. Edge crossed the line by giving info that was not readily available to everyone, other people's hand histories. The only unfairness is many players don't know PT exists to them. If everyone knew it existed, then it would not be unfair at all.

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
I think they give an unfair advantage to otherwise poor players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poor players see no benefit from a HUD. It doesn't tell you how to play. If the system said, "you should fold" (and was correct) then they would be receiving an advantage. All a HUD does is make the collection and retention of freely available information easier. Poor players will still make the same poor decisions.

It sounds like to me you're actually worried that it gives *good* players an advantage. I definitely believe there is an advantage to a good player, but I do not believe it to be an unfair one. Another poster has already addressed this point with a golf analogy. I think there is more to it than just that, but that's good enough for now.

The one area I happen to agree about is the collection of information from hands you did not participate in. If I had the power to choose, I would prevent Party from storing observed hand histories on the hard drive. I don't feel strongly about this, but I think that's where things start to cross the line. Clearly the poker sites think similarly since they have begun banning history sharing software, another source of hand histories you did not play in. I think observed hands are not altogether different. But I'm not interested in signing a petition to that effect.

There are a lot of misconceptions in this thread so let me clarify:

[ QUOTE ]
Let me guess, you don't have PT and you won't cough up the money to purchase it?

[/ QUOTE ]
I have owned PokerTracker for about five months, it's an excellent tool. I have also regularly used HUD software in the past. I stopped using it about two months ago as it barely makes a difference for me (I 4 table but observe and keep notes) and I have always had a problem with it as I believe it is unethical.
[ QUOTE ]
1. PokerTracker is available to anyone who wants to pony up $50.

[/ QUOTE ]
So was winholdem, pokeredge, and prophecy. Party specifically stated part of their dislike of these programs was the fact that paying money for them gave an unfair advantage to those willing to pay. Not that I'm comparing them, but Party is against player profiling software of any kind. HUDs combined with databases and autorate are just that.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Specific stats have always been available via PT and the "export to notes" function.

[/ QUOTE ]
True, but it's different to having real time data and ratings readily displayed and updated while you play. Your other points are valid though.

[ QUOTE ]
It won't change and your assertion that live poker should be like internet poker just doesn't jibe.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not my assertion, it's Party's. Something to the effect of human to human without player profiling done by a computer.

[ QUOTE ]
Well obviously they should just be banned for poor players. Can you make that distinction in your petition? Maybe we could draft a poker test and anybody who passes can use a HUD and the other's not.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your misplaced sarcasm is amusing, as is the fact you need a crutch to play poker.

[ QUOTE ]
I would prevent Party from storing observed hand histories on the hard drive.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a good idea, and probably as far as they'll go (for now).

[obsidian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would prevent Party from storing observed hand histories on the hard drive.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a good idea, and probably as far as they'll go (for now).

[/ QUOTE ]
Yea, crippling your software is a great way to attract new customers. Sorry man, but some players will always have an edge over other. When some new guy goes into a cardroom and has to play against a bunch of regulars who have been playing each other for years, he's at a disadvantage. Not too mention there are a ton of others ways to get an edge in live poker too (books, experience, physical tells/sunglasses, etc). Many of which cost money.

Online is not even close to the same as live poker. I don't give a [censored] what PartyGaming's PR reps say. As such, there are going to be different advantages people are able to get. I can't see someone jump out of their seat when they flop quads. Instead I get to see someone with a 0.01 aggression raising and reraising my top pair.

You openly admit to having used HUDs and not finding them very useful. Then what the hell is the problem when there are a bunch of other ways to gain edges. This is just one more. The fact that it is in real time and provided by a computer doesn't change anything.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
Well obviously they should just be banned for poor players. Can you make that distinction in your petition? Maybe we could draft a poker test and anybody who passes can use a HUD and the other's not.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your misplaced sarcasm is amusing, as is the fact you need a crutch to play poker.



[/ QUOTE ]

Good it was meant to be amusing although I would have said I was being facetious not sarcastic.

As to needing a crutch, I don't know why you would find that funny. but in any case I play without a HUD or PT fairly frequently when I'm away from my home computer.

Needing those programs isn't the right word here. When I ski, I use the shaped ski's that came in, what about a decade ago now? I certainly could ski on the old straight ski's but I find the better technology more enjoyable. I can (and do) play poker both live and online without anykind of stat-aid several times a week, but I certainly find it more enjoyable when I have that information.

Wouldn't bother me a bit if every person had it too. Let the sites give away PT and PokerAce or PV, I don't care. But those tools make poker more enjoyable for me and I'd like to keep using them.

Also, I don't personally data mine or buy HH from those commerial miners but that doesn't bother me either. Go ahead, grab my stats all you want. You still have to come outplay me. So come on to my table, my chips are always willing to venture into the pot...

--Zetack

[housenuts]

[ QUOTE ]
and there's only been one occasion on which I've seen someone "multitabling" live.

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, i want to multitable live

[SackUp]

YSSCKY

that is all