2-4 decision

[Yads]

The dealer should have said "Show please" when the second player called, but yeah I think this is one of those tough luck for the first player kind of situations. I don't see how the floor could rule in favor of the 1st player.

[Don Olney]

First of all, there are checks on the table from the second guy--- there was a bet, the first guy needs to pay attention--- He mucked done deal---
NO---We both know that here in Vegas a lot of rooms at the lower limits will turn to can the CARDS be saved---and in this case it seems like they were----
I go by MAKE THE NEW PLAYERS HAPPY BUT TEACH THEM AS THEY PLAY RULE-----

[4_2_it]

OK Al, who did you kick in the nuts?

My bet is on the dealer [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[CrazyEyez]

If the dealer is certain that the cards are on top, show them and give the pot to #1, assuming he really did have the best hand.

It's better for everyone in the long run. #1 still learns his lesson, #2 learns to make his actions more clear, and the dealer (hopefully) learns how to handle it better the next time. And most importantly, a new player is not turned off or scared away from the game.

[Mackie]

The correct ruling is player 2 is awarded the pot, however as the floor I would allow the identifiable cards of player 1 to be retrieved if player 2 was indeed hiding his cards, intentionally or not, AND calling in an ambiguous manner as you described. I would go to the camera if necessary.

If player 2's cards or action should have been clearly visible, the floor would be doing player 1 a favor by denying him the pot.

A couple months ago I was playing 6-12 and a young player at the other end of the table was in the habbit of tabling his cards by tossing them up in the air such that they would land face up in the middle of the table. He was warned by one dealer not to do this, but persisted. Sure enough, it cost him. I had AK utg and raised, he called. Flop Kxx I bet, he calls. Turn J. I bet, he raises, I call. Turn blank. Check-bet-call. He flips his cards up in the air the a jack lands in the middle face up. The other card, which I clearly saw was a king, lands on top of the muck face DOWN. Floor is called, rules against him. He asks me to chop the pot with him. I decline. The way I look at it, I was doing that kid a favor. That was the last time I saw him table his cards by tossing them up in the air.

Player 1's error was less extreme than my example, but he should learn to pay attention to how many players are in the pot, whether he's drinking or not.

[canis582]

As an aside, this is why some casinos shy away from spreading poker. If the room isnt successful, you end up with a table of 2-4 and two tables of stud filled with old nits. So you get 3-4 employees working in a large space that isnt producing much revenue, causing constant management headaches.

[steamboatin]

clearly a dealer error and in my mind that mitigates the mistake made by player #1. I say, retrieve the cards and the best hand wins.

If the dealer had done a better job, you would have a much easier decision or no problem at all. Without a dealer error, I say mucked hands are dead.

Drunk tourists are good for poker so it wasn't like He was going to keep those chips for very long.

[TripleH68]

As a player I am greatly annoyed when another player "conceals" his hand, voluntarily or not.

In this situation: if the dealer can retrieve the bettor's cards AND the bettor can call his hand before it is shown - I would not mind giving the pot to the bettor. Seems fair to me.

[andyfox]

Most places where I've seen printed rulebooks, usually have a rule like the floorman may make a decision contrary to the letter of the rules if it's in the best interest of the game. I think that would hold here. So:

1. Should the first guy be penalized for his actions, even tho he obviously wasn't clear about the fact he'd been called?

-He's an inexperienced player. He should be given the benefit of the doubt.

2. Is this a case of "your hand is dead, too bad" ??

-No. If the hand is retrievable, they should be retrieved and, before they're exposed, first guy should be asked "What did you have?" If he says Jack-Ten or whatever and the two cards are Jack-Ten, they should be allowed to play.

3. Should the fact that player one is an obviously inexperienced tourist be taken into consideration?

-Yes. See 1.

4. Who gets the pot?

-Whoever has the best hand. If player 1 is telling the trutn, it would be him. See 2.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

At 2/4 touristy games, and with identifiable cards, these should be pulled from the muck.