It's official

[Chris Alger]

An emoticon grin after the sentence "You think the ones who want to remove the fascists from power are the real fascists" obviously ridicules the notion that the removers could be "real fascists."

"Saddam's regime wasn't going to "go away" soon, and Saddam certainly wasn't going to "step down." His sons would have taken the reins had he died (they already were in charge of much of the military and security apparatus). You know all this, so to suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest on your part ...."

I have no idea what the life expectancy of the former Iraqi government was and neither do you. If the US was serious about human rights and democracy in Iraq, there are a host of policies that could have been implemented to both soften and ultimately remove the Baathists (human rights monitors, tailoring sanctions to democratic progress, etc.), but none were even considered as they would also remove the pretext for conquest and undermine US power in the region.

[MMMMMM]

Hard to believe that you would think such measures would amount to much in the way of desired effect. Obviously you do think so, bt I think that view is extremely naive or representative of tremendously wishful thinking.

[Chris Alger]

From what I gather from your tediously repetitive claims that there are no solutions short of mass violence, the only effects you desire are direct US control over other countries and many killed in order to accomplish it.

There isn't any dispute that nonviolent forms of coercion can have beneficial effects on human rights and democracy. South Africa is a fairly stunning example. In fact, the US engages in attempts to influence progress in democracy and human rights through human rights monitors, training in political activism and journalism and tailoring trade and other economic incentives to progress in these areas. Of course, these are minor priorities and receive a fraction of a percentage of the funding devoted to the military.

But my point isn't whether nonviolent means accomplish all or even most of what they hope to. My point is that, with Iraq, they weren't even attempted. When the official consensus for war emereged, they weren't even discussed. So actual historical record shows that the US doesn't give a damn about human rights and democracy in Iraq, not ever before and not now.

[Zeno]

Just to clarify further:


1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? Who is able to make war with him? - Revelation, Chapter 13 v. 1-4