AA

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You can keep constructing your custom examples where if you limp you get 341 callers so that's much better then if you raise because then you only get 2 other callers. Plus when you limp by god one of those 341 other players will raise then you get to three bet and my just think of the money!!!!! But you proved our point with:

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Firstly, as an example, lets assume your raise limits the field to 3 opponents and a call allows 6 opponents.
AA equity 3opponents = 63.9%*3 -1 = .917 x 2 bets = 1.8
AA equity 6 opponents = 43.6%*6 -1 = 1.616 x 1 bet = 1.6

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T

[/ QUOTE ]Thankyou. And you're right. I probably can put together examples to justify my reasoning and anyone elses. I think the only way to do this is to do the math. I'm going to have to ask around for some figures but I have a feeling that both strategies may prove to be profitable depending on the make up of the table eg. 3 LPP, 1 LAG, 2 TAG and depending on what position they are in.

I'm new to the game and this is how I learn.
All responses are appreciated.
I accept nothing at face value.

[Xhad]

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It is perfectly legitamite, and in fact suggested, to plug poor post-flop play by playing less-than-optimally pre-flop. It is too idealistic to simply say "work on your post-flop play."

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You are correct that playing suboptimally in some marginal situations can be right with the understanding that you'll do the right thing once you've learned to adjust to the situation better. Isolating a weak limper from the cutoff with QTo is a good example. 3-betting a maniac with A9o is another. So is limping UTG with A6s in a very loose-passive game. Raising AA is not marginal, at least not if you expect people to call you.

[Vee Quiva]

The goal of each hand of poker is to win the most money possible or lose the least.

It is rare in even the loosest of games to have 6 or more players limp preflop.

If you raise in early position, you will usually have at least 2 players come along for the ride. Heck the Big Blind is already 1/2 in. I take the sure thing and raise.

Plus limping negates your edge by letting more people in the pot. The fourth, fifth, and sixth limpers are getting great odds to chase with almost any two cards. Remember that your AA is only a 4-1 favorite over my KK. If 5 other players have limped into the pot and you show me your cards, I'm still going to call, because I am getting the correct odds. This flys in the face of "The Theory of Poker" in that you should try to make your opponents make moves that they would not make if they knew your cards.

In my stats I win with AA 80% of the time. Knowing this, I will concentrate on building as large a pot as possible since this hand has my highest winning percentage. In order to build a large pot, I need to raise it on a couple of streets if possible. The easiest raise to get called is preflop, since most players are too curious to see the flop.

Now if you know there are aggressive players behind you, then it may make sense to limp occasionally, counting on a raise from another player, so you can 3 bet.

I don't think anyone has touched on this yet....not raising with AA to cut down the field is a huge mistake. The reasoning is simple... with AA your likely to call all the way to the river correct (unless something really nasty hits the board)? However a good player calling with suited connectors can easily lay their hand down on the flop if they hit complete blanks and are mathematically correct to call if they get a monster draw (your hand most likely has little chance of improving to a better draw then theirs). Get the bets in early you never know whether you will be able to get them in later....

[OrangeKing]

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I don't think anyone has touched on this yet....not raising with AA to cut down the field is a huge mistake. The reasoning is simple... with AA your likely to call all the way to the river correct (unless something really nasty hits the board)? However a good player calling with suited connectors can easily lay their hand down on the flop if they hit complete blanks and are mathematically correct to call if they get a monster draw (your hand most likely has little chance of improving to a better draw then theirs). Get the bets in early you never know whether you will be able to get them in later....

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Actually, the very best situation you could get into is if you had tons of callers. You do not want to 'thin the field' with AA - your edge gets bigger and bigger as more people enter the pot. Remember, the goal isn't to win as many pots as possible, but to make as much money as possible; it's ok to play AA against 9 other hands, because although you may only win about 30% of the time, you'll win huge pots.

As for the suited connectors, they're harder to play than most people give them credit for, and aren't as easy to let go of. JTs is likely going to pay you off on any flop that has a J or T, for instance. That will happen much, much more often than when they hit their draw. And AA isn't that hard to get rid of if we have to; unimproved it's just a pair - when the action gets heated and the possibilty of a straight/flush/both is out there, we can slow down (and in some cases, just fold).

With AA, we raise to get more money in the pot , not to eliminate people because we're afraid we might get outdrawn.

[kidcolin]

Limp-reraising isn't a bad play, but it shouldn't be your standard play. For one, it's largely transparent. It gives away your hand way too much. They almost always know it's AA, with some possibility of KK or AKs.

Just raise, let the loosies call, and be happy.

[johnc]

The ONLY very specific times where I case AA NOT being raised preflop would be like HU against a very good opponent and limping provides deception forgoing an immediate ++EV.

That being said, full ring or even shorthanded games this will never be the case. Your preflop equity with AA cannot be larger therefore it makes perfect sense to capitalize on this and raise. The argument made by the OP is to build the pot by limping and "hoping" others limp in and hopefully stick around building the pot on future streets. That might be great if all goes as mathematically planned, but aces get cracked [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img], and most importantly this strategy places far too much importance upon the actions of our opponents who need to cooperate fully in order to succeed (lol). IMO, limping w/ AA is akin to playing poker in a bubble, relying completely upon the math, without taking into consideration our ever changing habits and quirks of each and everyone of our opponents.

So, here are my personal reasons for NEVER limping w/AA:

1) The preflop equity of AA is huge. My primary goal is to maximize my profits at each opportunity I'm afforded. Raising provides the greatest margin of profitablity through calls and re-raises.

2) Raising allows me to gain control of the table by forcing my opponents to act upon my raises. Harrington coined the term "first in vigorish" which a perfect decription here.

3) Although AA is very strong vs a large field, it's even stronger vs smaller fields typically and vs the types of hands that would call preflop raises.

4) I raise AA religiously and my profits on AA , as well as countless other 2+2ers, are very good, much more so than if I made a habit of limping.

[CORed]

Open limping with AA can be a good play if one or both of two things is true:
1. Your raise has a high probability of causing everyone to fold, so that you get only the blinds.
2. There is a very high probability that you will be raised, enabling you to reraise.

These things are rarely true in micro-limit online games, or low limit casino games. They are sometimes true in higher limit games. In Party 15/30 and 20/40, I will sometimes limp-reraise with AA. In a 1/2 game, I doubt I would ever do it. Note that stealing the bliNds wit AA is not good. Your equity is always worth considerable more than the blinds. In a loose passive game, though, raising will nearly always maximize your EV.