AKo UTG 10handed - Page 2

Oluwafemi · #1 09-03-2005, 02:04 PM

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everyone 1500 behind, blinds 25/50

AKo UTG raise to 200, CO calls, rest fold

flop T72 rainbow, I bet 200 (pot: 475), he pushes for 1k behind

is there a better line? whats your move here? (no reads)

[/ QUOTE ]

raise to t150 pf then check the flop. when villian bets [and he probably will], then it's an easy fold and you save yourself 250 extra chips.

AlphaWice · #2 09-03-2005, 03:14 PM

IMO (although I am a noob) this advice is awful. My reasoning is: If I called a PF raise of 4xBB, I would bet 100% of the time on a low flop if checked to me.

AlphaWice · #3 09-03-2005, 03:15 PM

So, what line should I use? I see some people saying to raise to 3xBB and then checkfold? I think this is too passive.

Oluwafemi · #4 09-03-2005, 04:13 PM

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So, what line should I use? I see some people saying to raise to 3xBB and then checkfold? I think this is too passive.

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it's not to passive; it's smart and it's standard. you've already seen how raising too much and then betting a missed flop has already lost you more money than you needed to lose.

bones · #5 09-03-2005, 04:22 PM

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it's not to passive; it's smart and it's standard

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Check/folding after you brick a flop heads up is smart and standard? Wow.

Oluwafemi · #6 09-03-2005, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's not to passive; it's smart and it's standard

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Check/folding after you brick a flop heads up is smart and standard? Wow.

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why don't you tell him what he/she wants to hear then.

45suited · #7 09-04-2005, 12:14 AM

The OP did not give enough information to reply to this thread with much confidence. Some questions that I feel are relevant:

1) What is your READ of the villain? Has he been playing a lot of pots? How aggressive has he been post flop?

2) How many players are left at the table?

3) What are the actual stack sizes? I have a hard time believing that everyone has t1500 in level 3.

Against certain players (me, for example), C-betting this flop would be chip bleeding. I'm not calling a 4XBB raise with a hand that I'm folding to a T high flop in the face of a weak C bet.

But how can anyone give a concrete answer w/o even taking into account a READ of the villain? That is the key factor in this hand. We're not playing against bots, we're playing against people who we should have some kind of read on by the time L3 rolls around.

I'm not a big C-bettor, but against certain players, I'd C-bet this flop. Against others, I wouldn't. It DEPENDS. Face it, by this time in the game, if certain players called your 4XBB raise, you'd have alarms going off in your head. If another player called your raise, you'd be salivating at the prospect of playing the pot HU against him.

It's kind of hard to give a concrete answer without taking into account the tendencies of your opponent in this situation. However, I will say that I would tend to raise less PF (t150), so that if I did C-bet, my C-bet could be a higher % of the pot without costing me so many chips.

Oluwafemi · #8 09-04-2005, 01:01 AM

45suited:

i agree with your post.

1. this was no read
2. a full table- 10 handed
3. i have a hard time believing that everyone has t1500 at Lv3 too.

the key problem with this hand is NO READ on villian. simply pulling out some math figures to support CBng into the flop against a villian that you don't have some inclination of how he plays by this level is troublesome.

[ QUOTE ]
Against certain players (me, for example), C-betting this flop would be chip bleeding. I'm not calling a 4XBB raise with a hand that I'm folding to a T high flop in the face of a weak C bet.

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IMO, villian's pf call is very key, especially when you consider you have NO READ. Hero can't even say whether the opponent is sphincter tight, average, solid, or a splashing fish.
flashing lights in your rear view mirror should not be ignored because if you speed up [CB] without fully knowing what's going on, then you could be in for more than just a high speed chase.

Taraz · #9 09-04-2005, 01:21 AM

I think the major difference of opinion on this hand is what kind of credit is given to the average player when no reads are available.

It seems that Oluwafami is giving the villain credit for being a decent player when he calls the pf raise because we have no reads. Bad Mongo, on the other hand, is saying that the "average" player that we will be playing against is bad and will call the pf raise with a wide range of hands.

I would tend to agree that when there is no read on the villain we should tag him as a typical (read: BAD) sng player and that we shouldn't be giving him credit for having a hand that can beat AK on the flop.

Oluwafemi · #10 09-04-2005, 01:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the major difference of opinion on this hand is what kind of credit is given to the average player when no reads are available.

It seems that Oluwafami is giving the villain credit for being a decent player when he calls the pf raise because we have no reads. Bad Mongo, on the other hand, is saying that the "average" player that we will be playing against is bad and will call the pf raise with a wide range of hands.

I would tend to agree that when there is no read on the villain we should tag him as a typical (read: BAD) sng player and that we shouldn't be giving him credit for having a hand that can beat AK on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, what i'm saying is you're in a bad spot when, at Lv3, when you have no read on a villain who is calling a 4XBB raise pf with the best position. to simply say that, since you don't have a read, you're automatically gonna tag villain as a bad player is ludicrous. on top of that, you're gonna continue through with a flop bet with the thinking that , "he does'nt have a hand that can beat my A K, regardless of the fact that i don't have a read on him or the fact that he called my t200 raise pf either". that ludicrous 2Xs.