Hand To Talk About

[Billy LTL]

I think this is a lovely hand that was expertly played.

It's this type of hand that, if it had come to a showdown, would have made all but the other pros at your table gasp at your "fishiness".

I also think your opponent would have won a showdown but because of the board, your betting, and the non-suited overcard on the river (all of which intermingle in a perfect relationship) he was just too overwhelmed to do anything other than fold.

I put him on JsJx.

Billy

[Tyler Durden]

Usually I don't defend my blinds very much. That's something I need to start working on.

[Zeno]

How much does a consistent, and reasonably tight, aggressive image have to do with winning this hand? Would certain players not be able to pull it off? This is not a criticism, but a question of the importance of image and how a different table image may be a factor in how the hand could be played.

-Zeno

[Rick Nebiolo]

Getting almost 8 to 1 (as long as their isn't a limp reraise) suited unblocked connectors are a call here. That being said, I think you are only giving up a little by folding. With one less limper I do think it is a fold (but would call getting 7 to 1 in an unraised small blind in a 20/40 pot.

~ Rick

[PokerPrince]

I'm not saying what I would do is correct. I am, and have always been, extremely tight. Perhaps this is a leak in my overall game and I should loosen up a hair under circumstances like this. Some solid points are being made in regards to this being a call and not a fold, and they are duely noted. Holdem' is an incredibly positional game and this situation just seems like the epidomy of horrible position. It would be one thing if I closed the betting with my call, such as 'raise, call, call, I call', but this isn't the case. I think the decision is closer than most think, and if folding isn't correct, I don't think it's catastrophic by any means.

PokerPrince

[glen]

When I'm in the BB and there is a late position raiser after a few limpers, I've always considered that to be closing the action, since 99.9% of the time, the limpers go call, call, call. . . Are limp-reraises that frequent in your games that you factor them in as a possibility in instances like this?

[PokerPrince]

Unfortunately yes, limp reraises happen quite often in the games I play in. The games are usually quite loose/aggressive and the players often like to 'build a pot' by pumping it up preflop. Perhaps playing in these wild games has made me the way I am today and I need to try more passive games.

PokerPrince

[Softrock]

Hi Mason: Many variables here as to who this guy was (meaning more about his style). I strongly suspect AK clubs or maybe AT or AJ of clubs. However, if this was a weak-tight player who was aware of who you are, could he actually lay down a Queen or a hand like TT or 99? Maybe, but that's way more weak than tight.

Could this be one of those times where we tend to think we made a good bet to take a pot when in actuality your pair of 4s would have been good anyhow? This is what I suspect (and you did not say you bluffed out a better hand - some have assumed that).

[Softrock]

Well, obviously it's not AK clubs - reread the post - had forgotten the K on the river.

[elysium]

hi mason
the pre-flop call looks o.k., although a case could perhaps be made for folding, but i suppose this particular opponent was not a tight, so that looks good.

on the river, i'm guessing here that there are about 5 hands that this opponent will fold excuding AQ and KQ, i don't think he will fold those. you want the call from AJ and J10 of course. so when he holds a hand that he may fold, it's wrong to bet out into him 1 out of 5 times. i don't know how exact we can get with this figure, and i may be wrong; this is my very best estimation. i guesstimate that when he does in fact hold a hand that he MAY fold, 4 out of 5 times, you want the fold. and so that we can look at this from the very best circumstance, let's say you know for a fact that he hold a hand that he may fold, you're getting pot odds of 8-1 or so. now, this is way too technical for me to continue with. i do not know whether the 8-1 pot odds justify not betting and simply taking the 5-1 that he may hold AJ or J10.

the main problem that stands out in my opinion, is that this opponent may try to bluff raise the river. and mason, i think there is a good chance that he will show down AJ unimproved. i don't like the river bet, but i may be very wrong and i really hesitate to even question it seriously, but here i do. i just think check and call the dang thing. take the 5-1 odds on an 8-1 rather than risking the positive ev by being forced to call a raise. the only way i can go along with betting out on the river, is if you are willing to call the possible raise. it's a mess mason. this is a real mess. i say check call. it's probably wrong. i cannot fathom betting out on the river though. mason, on that board? i can't believe you bet out. he's gotta call, but the one hand that he may have here, the AJ, and that's likely what he had, well you want him to bluff you on the river with it, getting more money in the pot. it is not completely wrong to take the 5-1 chance that he has AJ, and there is a very, very good reason for not folding it out, more money. you want the bluff bet, but i can't imagine what good does it do to solicit a bluff raise. and this mason, when you know for a fact that he holds a hand that he may fold.

now, to turn this into a definate bet out into him on the river, you would have to include some reasonable expectation that he will fold KQ and AQ. if he will, then i go along with betting out on the river. it's just heads up here mason, will he fold AQ or KQ? did you have a reasonable expectation of getting those hands out. very important. i say no possible way.