Bush dictatorship wins. Constitution is dead.

[BCPVP]

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You do realize laws are reviewed by the supreme court and they decide if its unconstitutional or notm sofar this one has stood.

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I might be confused by the wording, but I don't think this is correct. The Supreme Court rules on cases brought before it. I don't think it rules every law that is passed as constitutional or unconstitutional.

[DVaut1]

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You do realize laws are reviewed by the supreme court and they decide if its unconstitutional or notm sofar this one has stood.

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I might be confused by the wording, but I don't think this is correct. The Supreme Court rules on cases brought before it. I don't think it rules every law that is passed as constitutional or unconstitutional.

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BCPVP, we might not agree on much, but at least you passed Civics class in junior high...

I think that's still up in the air in regards to others here, though.

[BCPVP]

A.P. American Government, actually. It's been a while, hence my caution in pointing it out.

With that said, however, I'd enjoy hearing some responses to vulturesrow's challenge, as I have also been curious about the supposed freedoms I lost under the Patriot Act.

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Thus, the Supreme Court should not be used as a yardstick when considering a law's impact on freedom and liberty.

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Double Standard here? Since I bet you think it should regarding Roe V Wade.

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No, I don't. Leave it to the states, its not a federal issue and is not an enumerated power of the federal government in the Constitution to regulate/restrict/condone abortion.

[LethalRose]

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as I have also been curious about the supposed freedoms I lost under the Patriot Act.

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freedom to participate in illegial activies as easily as you could 5 yrs ago.

[coffeecrazy1]

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And whats bad about this? I'am not a bush fan but I think the patriot act is a good thing.

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Well for one, its already been used (abused) beyond its original scope to get evidence in drug cases, etc., which have nothing to do with national security but gives law enforcement a chance to get around the law.

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -- Benjamin Franklin

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ben franklin doesnt live in our time.

Also, i dont see any problem with law enforcement going around the lay to catch drug dealers. I have nothing to hide nor do I participate in illegial activities so they can go crazy for all i care.

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Yeah...so I guess, by your logic...we shouldn't follow the Constitution since it wasn't written in our time. There's no way that something two hundred years old could still be relevant, could it?

But, since you seem to be ignorant to the problems of an unchecked government, here's another quote for you:

"When they came for the communists, I said nothing
When they came for the gypsies, I said nothing -
When they came for the Jews, I said nothing -
When they came for me, there was no-one left to say anything."
--Martin Niemoller

[DVaut1]

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A.P. American Government, actually. It's been a while, hence my caution in pointing it out.

With that said, however, I'd enjoy hearing some responses to vulturesrow's challenge, as I have also been curious about the supposed freedoms I lost under the Patriot Act.

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I would suspect no one will be able to meet (part) of his challenge, in that no one here has likely been the victim of Patriot Act excesses - yet I think a quick Google search would list the names of some (perhaps like 5 - 10) Americans who have had provisions of the Patriot Act invoked against them in court (sometimes unknowingly to both the defendant and their lawyers) - mostly child pornographers, drug traffickers, computer hackers, etc.

vulturerow's challenge is certainly accurate (at least Part B of his challenge) in that you or I (and most other Americans) probably haven't lost any personal freedoms; yet I think Part C of his challenge is unknowable, as some accused parties may have had the Patriot Act used against them under-handedly by the Justice Department - this can be somewhat alarming, although, like many alarming things, relies on some form of the ‘slippery slope’ argument to be truly worrisome.

Again, I only have the Internet at my disposal and I hesitate to post any links, mostly because such links are of questionable veracity and (as expected) the Justice Department typically isn't very forthright about how they prosecute – so even the best and most objective information sources have a very incomplete picture of how the Patriot Act is currently being used.

Despite that, I think we can admit Wikipedia is something of an objective source, and they cite a few of the ways the Justice Department has invoked the Patriots Act to prosecute some defendants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_act


Long story short, I think there’s a very incomplete picture as to how the Patriot Act has been used so far (I think much of this can be attributed to the clandestine ways our Justice Department operates, for better or worse); and while I doubt there has been widespread injustices caused by the Patriot Act, I also don’t doubt that there are Americans who sincerely believe they have been unfairly prosecuted using its provisions – and it takes a better lawyer than I to delineate whether or not such uses were justifiable.

Someone with more knowledge than I on this may be able to add more than I can - but from where I stand, the jury is still out on part C of his challenge.

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Also, i dont see any problem with law enforcement going around the lay to catch drug dealers. I have nothing to hide nor do I participate in illegial activities so they can go crazy for all i care.

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Another American who knows (and cares) nothing about freedom and liberty, the bedrock of a free society. 'Tis a sad state.

[tek]

The point is, we now live in a 1984/Brave New World/Soviet gulag society (old man Bush used to say "New World Order" as he pounded his fist and generated a woody) where we are subject to the whims of the government supposedly in place to protect us, but is now empowered to control and possibly enslave us in order to protect the interests of the 3% of the population that controls 90% of the wealth in this country.

Thanks to the "Patriot" Act we are now (and have been for four years) terrorists until proven innocent. Anything we say or do that is at all scary to the powers that be will be dealt with as it was in nazi germany and the soviet union.

Thanks to the ever increasing martial law apparatus that has been rolling along since the Raygun admin, we are really going to be fukked the next time the Bushes and their Saudi and CIA cohorts decide to blow up a big building. The precedent and administrative apparatus are in place.

What does that mean to us in our everyday lives? Any of us could be arrested for saying things on emails or message boards that piss off the controllers of this country.

Freedom to travel anywhere for vacations or poker tournaments? May need to get approval ahead of time. Failure to do so and you won't be allowed to board the airplane or Greyhound or get through the military checkpoints on the Interstate system.

Want to sell your house and move? Not so fast. Change jobs--maybe, maybe not.

These controls over freedom are bound to happen in this country because we did not learn from what the german nazis, soviets, chinese, etc have done over the past 50-70 years.

The people who have been entrusted to protect our freedom have traitorously sold us out.

The Patriot Act and the increasing martial law provisions have turned us into de facto slaves on the S & P 500 Plantation.

The young guys on the 2+2 board won't get it until it totally happens. Older guys, especially those who have talked to survivors of the nazis, soviets, chinese, etc will understand.

[LethalRose]

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The young guys on the 2+2 board won't get it until it totally happens. Older guys, especially those who have talked to survivors of the nazis, soviets, chinese, etc will understand.

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You might be right about this. But I have had no issues traveling and doing everything I normally have done. Things dont seem so different to me.