the guy won't decide. - Page 2

#11 08-30-2005, 06:14 PM

$40 buy in cash....he had about $65, and had invested $25 in the pot, leaving him with $30.

BTW, i wanted him to call. I had flopped TPTK + nut FD.
so, any other opinions? so far pretty good answers--
to those who feel we acted wrongly, should i give him his money back?? that would suck but a good long- term inv.

#12 08-30-2005, 10:19 PM

Give him back his money and make a house rule before the game on calling for a clock. It doesn't sound right when you said "three of us decided to give him 2 minutes..."

I'm not sure how everything went, but the guy may of gotten more confused when given the time limit.

4_2_it · #13 08-30-2005, 10:42 PM

Not a lot of cash to go into the tank for 15 minutes. Still, I can't get on board with the table deciding to autofold for him.

I guess the lesson here is to set up ground rules (preferably in writing) before you play. If you were going to fold his hand you should have offered his money back, especially since he is a donator. If some one did this to me, I would not come back. JMHO.

I play in a very friendly home game where there is no check raising. Each week I kid the host and make sure he is still enforcing the rule. Maybe one day he will give in [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

John Bedtelyon · #14 08-31-2005, 12:08 AM

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I'm not sure how everything went, but the guy may of gotten more confused when given the time limit.

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I'm still against the mucking his hand, but how would he get confused if he was told, "you have two minutes to decide or you will be folded."

I don't understand how he couldn't say anything, especially when there were 10 seconds left!

Zetack · #15 08-31-2005, 09:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I guess the lesson here is to set up ground rules (preferably in writing) before you play. If you were going to fold his hand you should have offered his money back, especially since he is a donator. If some one did this to me, I would not come back. JMHO.

:

[/ QUOTE ]

According to the orrignal poster he sat there for "minutes" before they gave him two to act. So say he sat there for two minutes then they gave him two more (I'm guessing it was a lot longer than that with all the necessary discussing what to do). You're saying that with at least four minutes to act you wouldn't make a decision and that with a two minute warning you'd be so pissed off about it that you'd never play there again after they folded your hand? ... I just don't know what to say about that.

So, um...would you not come back if they folded your hand after fifteen minutes because there was no written time rule? How about an hour? What if you sat there for 6 hours, going "no written rule, no written rule, I'm still thinking..." They still can't fold your hand?

Whatever man. Don't come back then. But be aware that you're the unreasonable one, not the guys who give you 4 or 5 minutes to act then fold your hand.

--Zetack

Lottery Larry · #16 08-31-2005, 10:22 AM

" I felt the same way, and eventually we agreed between 3 of us that we would act for him in 2 minutes, folding his hand if he failed to act. We made it clear that we were seroius and he had to decide NOW. Times up. "ok man 5 seconds, call or fold, or its over.." ........... no response, and we wiped it, taking his hand. I scooped the pot.

Yeah i understand that in casinos they are strict about this and it's posted, but did we do the right thing? The guy was furious and wanted his money back"

Did anyone think to ask WHY he was taking so long, or how much time he thought he needed? Was he thinking that he could wait out a tell from you?

Making a decision on the time limit without involving him seems a bit controlling. I agree that your time deadline was reasonable and he shouldn't complain that he wasn't warned, but you might have handled it a bit more diplomatically, rather than autocratically.

"Give me my money back"? yeah, right. He was stupid.

beekeeper · #17 08-31-2005, 10:46 AM

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They wanted to get on with the game, you know? I felt the same way, and eventually we agreed between 3 of us that we would act for him in 2 minutes, folding his hand if he failed to act.

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I think you should have stayed out of it and let the rest of the table decide.

4_2_it · #18 08-31-2005, 12:39 PM

I'm not saying I would take 15 minutes to act. Clearly the guy was in the wrong, but folding his hand? That doesn't seem like the right way to resolve this. This is a no-win situation, I don't think there is any one solution that reasonable people could agree is fair.

I'm just saying that I would not play in a game where the table suddenly makes arbitrary rules and then enforces them in the middle of a hand. What next, 6's are wild after the flop or how about we make this a hi-lo pot? I just get nervous when new rules pop up out of nowhere during a home game. Most home games are for fun, and there shouldn't be that much pressure where it would take more than one minute to make a decision, but the rules shouldn't change in mid-stream either.

Lottery Larry · #19 08-31-2005, 02:13 PM

I understand your sentiment, but I disagree with your reasoning. This is not a special rule that has been suddenly inserted, this is a common rule that you can find in casinos and therefore it wasn't a radical thing to expect for the hand to be folded after several warnings.

Yes, a home game is more relaxed and friendly, but you can't let someone hold the game hostage either.

Zetack · #20 08-31-2005, 02:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I understand your sentiment, but I disagree with your reasoning. This is not a special rule that has been suddenly inserted, this is a common rule that you can find in casinos and therefore it wasn't a radical thing to expect for the hand to be folded after several warnings.

Yes, a home game is more relaxed and friendly, but you can't let someone hold the game hostage either.

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Yeah, what Larry said.

Arbitrary and capricious rules shouldn't be made on the spot. I'd be in your corner if they said, hey man, you're taking too long, 10 more seconds and we're folding your hand. But they didn't.

Six are now wild, next orbit is omaha...those are arbitrary and capricious in a freezout. Saying you only get to take a reasonable amount of time to act is not.

There are a lot of implicit rules. We never explicitly say you can't look at flop cards before they are dealt, but that doesn't mean you can pick up the deck and look at them while trying to decide whether to call an all-in bet. Sometimes you have to make rulings as you go along, and a table consensus that the guy couldn't have an unlimitted amount of time to just sit there, is a reasonable way to handle it.

I like Larry's way of putting it, the guy can't hold the table hostage.

--Zetack