KQs, how's my line?

[jzpiano14]

After the flop I was either thinking 2 pair or TP. After the turn call is when I put him on the better hand with 2 pair.

[Godfather80]

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I'm still fairly new to NL, I'm a limit player so I'm still getting used to the NL thing. I have seen ppl call these types of bets with bottom pair since this is PP and ppl do things like that. In this case I still wasn't sure of a hand I could put him on, by him calling the turn bet I thought I could define it more.

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Here's the thing: what hands could SB have called you 6xBB raise with preflop that would make bottom pair or middle pair here?

You know what happened in the actual hand. I'm guessing you won and SB had some piece of crap hand. But, our conversation here has little to do with the actual results of this one instance and more to do with the overall line and what decisions will give you the max +EV.

Hands that start as top pair-good kicker & river top two pair, like this one, will certainly win you good money from donkeys if the SB was indeed a donkey. But against better competition, hands like this the way you played it may lose you more money than they win you.

Post some results. I'm curious.

[jzpiano14]

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[ QUOTE ]

I'm still fairly new to NL, I'm a limit player so I'm still getting used to the NL thing. I have seen ppl call these types of bets with bottom pair since this is PP and ppl do things like that. In this case I still wasn't sure of a hand I could put him on, by him calling the turn bet I thought I could define it more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the thing: what hands could SB have called you 6xBB raise with preflop that would make bottom pair or middle pair here?

You know what happened in the actual hand. I'm guessing you won and SB had some piece of crap hand. But, our conversation here has little to do with the actual results of this one instance and more to do with the overall line and what decisions will give you the max +EV.

Hands that start as top pair-good kicker & river top two pair, like this one, will certainly win you good money from donkeys if the SB was indeed a donkey. But against better competition, hands like this the way you played it may lose you more money than they win you.

Post some results. I'm curious.

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SB fliped over a set of 5's and took it down.

Do I give him credit for the set anywhere he played this? I was shocked by the set when I saw it. I really did think he had some crappy two pair or the possible suited connector 54. What if I check it through the turn and they fire for a PSB on the river, would u call UI?

[xcrack999]

I actually like your line here. I don't think checking behind the turn is necessary because this isn't a way ahead or way behind situation here. It looks more like a way ahead or a little behind situation.

[Godfather80]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm still fairly new to NL, I'm a limit player so I'm still getting used to the NL thing. I have seen ppl call these types of bets with bottom pair since this is PP and ppl do things like that. In this case I still wasn't sure of a hand I could put him on, by him calling the turn bet I thought I could define it more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the thing: what hands could SB have called you 6xBB raise with preflop that would make bottom pair or middle pair here?

You know what happened in the actual hand. I'm guessing you won and SB had some piece of crap hand. But, our conversation here has little to do with the actual results of this one instance and more to do with the overall line and what decisions will give you the max +EV.

Hands that start as top pair-good kicker & river top two pair, like this one, will certainly win you good money from donkeys if the SB was indeed a donkey. But against better competition, hands like this the way you played it may lose you more money than they win you.

Post some results. I'm curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

SB fliped over a set of 5's and took it down.

Do I give him credit for the set anywhere he played this? I was shocked by the set when I saw it. I really did think he had some crappy two pair or the possible suited connector 54. What if I check it through the turn and they fire for a PSB on the river, would u call UI?

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There is nothing that surprising about him showing you the set. What else is gonna call your river all-in that would have played the rest of the hand the way SB did? To become a better NL player, you must put your opponent on a hand range from preflop, and then refine that range on the flop and turn.

Had you checked through on the turn and then faced a pot-sized bet on the river, you certainly could have called because you gave your opponent the chance to bluff at you with a worse hand than yours. Having made top two-pair on the river probably seals you in, having checked through on the turn. Barring a specific read, I see no reason why you shouldn't call a reasonable bet on the river.

[Godfather80]

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I actually like your line here. I don't think checking behind the turn is necessary because this isn't a way ahead or way behind situation here. It looks more like a way ahead or a little behind situation.

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What hand range to you give SB that would make this the case? How could hero be "a little behind on the turn"? At best, hero has 14 outs if he is behind, right? Against a set, hero has 8 outs. Not exactly "a little behind" is it.

[xcrack999]

The board is pretty draw heavy. Any A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], any straight + flush combo draw, any pair + flush combo draw, any straight draw, any flush draw, lower queens, and lower pocket pairs. Put it this way. Say you have K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], so you have no flush draw, and you see that the board is pretty draw-heavy. Do you bet that turn and charge draws or check behind and give a free card? Remember that we're not assuming a tight player who won't call big bets with just a draw. We're assuming an unknown at Party poker NL25 which most likely means someone who will call pot-size bets with a good draw like an OESD or better.

[jzpiano14]

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The board is pretty draw heavy. Any A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], any straight + flush combo draw, any pair + flush combo draw, any straight draw, any flush draw, lower queens, and lower pocket pairs. Put it this way. Say you have K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], so you have no flush draw, and you see that the board is pretty draw-heavy. Do you bet that turn and charge draws or check behind and give a free card? Remember that we're not assuming a tight player who won't call big bets with just a draw. We're assuming an unknown at Party poker NL25 which most likely means someone who will call pot-size bets with a good draw like an OESD or better.

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Good thought it is always possible on a PP 25 table that somebody is drawing to something. I wasn't worried as much about the flush, since a lot of ppl will play T2s or 74s. The straight is a concern but 2 or his 8 or 1 of 4 of his outs are covered by the flush.

[Godfather80]

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The board is pretty draw heavy. Any A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], any straight + flush combo draw, any pair + flush combo draw, any straight draw, any flush draw, lower queens, and lower pocket pairs. Put it this way. Say you have K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], so you have no flush draw, and you see that the board is pretty draw-heavy. Do you bet that turn and charge draws or check behind and give a free card? Remember that we're not assuming a tight player who won't call big bets with just a draw. We're assuming an unknown at Party poker NL25 which most likely means someone who will call pot-size bets with a good draw like an OESD or better.

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I'm still missing out on what draw you expect him to have. Do you think he holds KJ preflop and calls that flop bet looking for his runner-runner? Do you think SB does this with J9 even though this seems an unlikely holding to play for a 6xBB raise in SB? You may even want to consider 67s for SB. And certainly A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. All of these hands could be played by SB and should be charged on the turn in order to draw against you. You are correct on that.

However, when I believe the above hands make up a minority of the hands that SB could be playing given the preflop and flop action. I think that the majority of hands SB could be playing given the preflop and flop action require a check behind on the turn and a reassessment on the river.

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After the flop I was either thinking 2 pair or TP. After the turn call is when I put him on the better hand with 2 pair.

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What is TP?
Thanks.