Simple Thought Experiment for SSNL'ers

[xorbie]

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That not being allowed to raise preflop at all has to be worse than having to raise 20xBB if you do raise?

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Well that much should be obvious.

[wtfsvi]

Yes, it should be.

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1. standard PFR must be 20xBB
2. inability to bet hands, must checkraise only (calling PF ok)
3. inability to raise preflop
4. all-in or fold on flop
5. can never call, must raise or fold


If you think about these for a while, i think you'll come up with some interesting results as to how big of leaks these are and what proper countermeasures are. if you're just starting out and don't feel qualified to give a response, ty listing the restrictions in order of how much you think they would hurt an otherwise winning player's game.

fim

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1. 20x BB raise would hurt pretty bad, because it would limit what you could play. You'd be betting 40 to win 3$ pots pre-flop in 200NL. This would be bad, but you could overcome it somewhat by buying pots post-flop, and by the eventual times you had a hand winning large pots. I think this would be a losing stipulation, but it would be interesting to see if one could make it work.

2. Must checkraise only: this would hamper a good player a lot IMO. It would make it more difficult to build pots when one had the goods. On the other hand, since you would be checking and either raising or folding, you would save on the front end by not giving up bets with nothing. Of course you'd allow a lot of free cards and this would be horrible on the turn when a board has dangerous draws. So far I think this one is the worst.

3. No Raising pre-flop. This wouldn't hurt as much as one might think, but it would still cost you pot building. The thing is, if you never raise pre-flop it certainly provides cover for your holdings, and if you play well post-flop you can probably make up for a good bit of lost equity. So far I think this one hurts the least.

4. All-in or fold on flop. OK this one is the worst. Most of the money one makes gets in on the turn in these capped games in standard hands, so this stipulation would just be terrible.

5. Can never call, must raise or fold: this would be a problem, but would definitely be a useful exercise even if it would hamper the ability to play post-flop somewhat.

IMO number 4 is the worst, followed by number 2 and the stipulation that could most easily be overcome would be number 3.

[IamLeach]

1. I will not call this bet. I will only fold or or re-raise this player. If he keeps raising a large amount I wait and try to see if there is any info as to the strength of his hand. I'll want to see what his standars are. Meanwhile I will be waiting for TT up ( maybe nine's) and hope he raises so I can re-raise it to 60xBB.

2. This player allows you to play weaker handsagainst him especially HU. I would play more hands with him. When he CR's me when I have a good hand I will 3 bet and probvably lead the next street.

3. I would try to steal from this player ofton. I would bluff with marginal hands and trash hands to try to steal. Monsters would be slowplayed.

4. Make a lot of CB against this player. Call the all in when you have the goods.

5. This player is my favorite. I let him take the lead. I don't get too involved after the flop but when I do I will most likely have him beat. This way He continues to bet into me and I c/c, c/c, lead the river and hope he raises so I can put him all in.

[IamLeach]

That each of these are indeed leaks, and, each of these common play types are to be avoided if you want to be a good player.
Also, I think it shows that there is no standard way in every game. Games are different because the players are different. As such, you should play differently.

[theben]

never tried that. sounds interesting, very unusual.

[DoomSlice]

I'm wondering why people are saying that #5, the raise or fold option, cripples your play. You should probably be playing this way much of the time.

[bkholdem]

try thining about how you would adjust your game to each of the following scenarios in a shorthanded (4 players in general) situation.

remember, other than the restrictions, this is a solid player trying very hard to win. he will play as optimally as he can against you.

1. standard PFR must be 20xBB
2. inability to bet hands, must checkraise only (calling PF ok)
3. inability to raise preflop
4. all-in or fold on flop
5. can never call, must raise or fold
_____________________________________________

1. sit to your right and limp reraise all in on group 1 and group 2 hands if heads up

2. check weak, moderate hands, and draws. Bet strong hands

3. monitor vp$p, play poker

4. monitor Vp$p and frequency of fold/all in on flop. call or fold depends on frequency of those variables. Call with draws and moderate hands and up if doing going all in fairly often, call with only strong hands if only going all in infrequently. Check strong hands on flop if on your right.

5. bet/raise fair hands and better consider folding to the rereraise. be very cautious when not heads up. do not bet draws. Depending on the frequency of your raising I would consider leaving this table.

Not sure how I did. Good exercise fim. Thanks.

[jjacky]

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remember, other than the restrictions, this is a solid player trying very hard to win. he will play as optimally as he can against you.

1. standard PFR must be 20xBB
2. inability to bet hands, must checkraise only (calling PF ok)
3. inability to raise preflop
4. all-in or fold on flop
5. can never call, must raise or fold


If you think about these for a while, i think you'll come up with some interesting results as to how big of leaks these are and what proper countermeasures are. if you're just starting out and don't feel qualified to give a response, ty listing the restrictions in order of how much you think they would hurt an otherwise winning player's game.

fim

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my thought to the restrictions:

1. standard PFR must be 20xBB
i think this restriction doesn't cause as bad a leak as the others. many limps instead of a 3 - 5x BB raise are not optimal, but the good player will have plenty time to outplay the opposition postflop.

2. inability to bet hands, must checkraise only (calling PF ok)
if a mediocre player gets the adjustments right, it should be impossible for the good player to have a positive EV. the weak player may check down many hands and the good player is unable to protect his hand. even against an opposition that doesn't make any adjustment it is probably very difficult to play because of the natural passive tendencies of many opponents.

3. inability to raise preflop
a little worse than number 1, but i think the good player will be able to win anyway. he will see many cheap flops and outplay the opposition later.

4. all-in or fold on flop (i asume that the good player may check, but it doesn't make much of a difference anyway)
how bad this one is depends heavily on the stack sizes of course. if the good player is very short stacked, that is not much of a restriction. if he has a big stack, say 100BB or more it should be easy to beat world class opposition, even for average players. just see a cheap flop against the pro and make a probe bet on the flop (if the restriction forbids checking too, just check to the good player who is restricted).

5. can never call, must raise or fold
as long as the opposition fails to adjust, it should be easy to win even with the restriction. but if someone adjusts correctly, it may be almost as devastating as number 4. the adjustment is the following: bet less than usualy (a bet of half the normal size has at least the same effect because the good player has do double it in order to continue with the hand) and do not respect raises by the good player (and reraise very often). if the normal bet with a very strong hand in a certain situation would be say 5$, just bet 3 and if the opponent raises (maybe with a flush draw or a marginal holding) make a nice reraise.

[jjacky]

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there is one piece of logical deduction in the question i asked. anyone find it yet?

fim

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this one is easy. the answer is no. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]