The power of an Idea - The Long View.

[andyfox]

Good places to start are John C. Miller's The Wolf by the Ears and Jeffersonian Legacies edited by Peter Onuf.

[andyfox]

I'm not persuaded that the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with taking the saddles of the backs of the people of Iraq, or the free right to the exercise of reason and freedom of opinion. The current Bush administration, popuulated by many from the first Bush administration, wanted to refight the Gulf War with a better outcome. They made up the connection between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein. The idea of liberating Iraq was a PR afterthought.

Now if the result proves to be better lives for the people of Iraq, that would be wonderful. The history of our involvement with overthrowing governments we didn't like, does not lead one to have confidence that the Jeffersonian ideals will be met in Iraq. I hope I am completely wrong. I'd much rather be wrong and that this invasion leads to the blessings and security of self-government. Bringing in a U.S. trained banker (Chalabi) who has not been in the country for almost 50 years to put things right does not give me cause to be optimistic.

[adios]

Given the current situation, what would your plan entail or more precisely what is the Democratic Party alternative? I think it's fair to say that Iraqis are pleased with the removal of Hussein. It's easy to be negative and cynical. What is the Democratic plan for helping the Iraqi people in this transition? Do they have one? I would interested in learning more about it. My guess is that the Democrats will play partisan politics at every turn of events and take every opportunity that they can to criticize the administration without out offering a credible policy of their own. This is the reason why I think the Democrats will lose big time in 2004. People are fed up with the negativeness and the cynicism displayed by the Democrats as well as their paucity of ideas.

[andyfox]

I agree with your assessment of the Democrats. Tom Daschle in particular, IMO, is an embarrassment. The only Democrat I have heard who has concrete ideas is Gary Hart. I hope he decides to run for president if only to push those that have a chance to get the nomination to put forward ideas rather than posturing.

[MMMMMM]

So...this naturally leads to the rather interesting question: why do the Democrats generally seem to be out of ideas (assuming you are and Tom are correct)?

Do you see this as a failure of a large collection of individuals who are just out of ideas, or...just maybe...that most of the ideas the Democrats have put forth over the years simply don't cut it in the real world? Perhaps many of these ideas addressed a time gone by? Is it primarily the poor quality of Democratic candidates/politicians or the poor quality of the Democratic platform that is producing this current paucity of ideas? Or is this effect due to something entirely different (if so, what)?

[andyfox]

First of all, assuming Tom and I are correct is a dubious premise upon which to start. . . [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

When I talk of "the Democrats," I'm talking about the leaders of the national "party." I put the word party in quotation marks because political parties are not the homogenous entities they once were. As recently as 1968, the conventions, for example, were shows. The party candidates were picked in the proverbial smoke-filled rooms. The primaries were not binding. For example. in that year, Robert Kennedy and Eugene McCarthy were banging head in the Democratic primaries, but Hubert Humphrey had locked up the nomination. Humphrey did not even compete in the infamous California primary, infamous because it was after delivering his victory speech that Robert Kennedy was killed.


Hey, I think the leaders of the Republican Party have far more bankrupt ideas than the Democrats. But I'm pretty far out in left field (not surprising news, I know), so perhaps I'm not the best person to address your questions.

[MMMMMM]

I'm not even sure if it's true, but if it is, those are the questions it raised in my mind.

[Zeno]

"But the ideas, when not put into practice, are empty."

A justifiable criticism of Jefferson. But just because the words may have been empty in regard to Jefferson's life, in no way degrades the meaning that they have for my life, or, for the life's of millions of other people that have benefited from the ideas that he helped put into motion.

-Zeno

[andyfox]

Correct, and well-put.

[Zeno]

"I'm not persuaded that the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with taking the saddles of the backs of the people of Iraq, or the free right to the exercise of reason and freedom of opinion."

I’m not persuaded that freedom did not have a large influence on the cause of going to war.

Now the immediate leaders in the cause are self-serving politicians to one degree or another and to say that they were doing this for only altruistic purposes is silly. I did not want to focus on specific individuals but on general ideas and movements that ebb and flow through history and the power those ideas have to change or alter that flow.

Whatever the motives of the leaders and the powerful, things have been set in motion, in the Middle East, the US, and Europe, that may profoundly alter the future. It may alter the future in ways that no one can foresee, or in ways that benefit only a few - or the many, or in positive ways that bring hope and security to more people, or, just the opposite. Once the wheel is set in motion the ability of those that set it moving to influence and control it may be in doubt. Or, if we are to believe our leaders, the wheel of democracy is being set in motion and then we will watch from the sidelines to see were it rolls.

Whatever the immediate chaos and divisions are at present in Iraq; a turning point for a people and country is coming about and the turning point may have profound influences on the future of the region. What will the country be like in 2 years or 10 years or the whole region in say 50 years? I hope it is a positive future. And that:

“ The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God.”

How palatable that statement will be to Iraq’s people remains to be seen - Or to the other vast majority of Muslims in the region, to say nothing of the House of Saud. Or even, dare I say it, Israel.


-Zeno