Any logic behind this guy's set weakness? - Page 2

GoCubsGo · #11 08-26-2005, 03:49 PM

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Raise the flop, pot the turn, bet more on the river. You should have lost more on this hand.

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I strongly disagree with this. What draw am I trying to block on the flop? I'm kind of tired of posts sayng bet the pot, raise more, etc. Where do you guys play because I want to go there! PSB are called 10% of the time. If I raise on this flop, 3/4 of the time everyone folds. What hand calls a PSB on the river that I beat? That is horrible advice. These guys don't understand pot size or odds or any of that. Most of them will sooner call a $10 bet into a $5 pot than a $20 bet into a $30 pot. When I make pot size bets and raise every time I know I have the better hand, I look at my stats and see something like this:

Pots won at showdown: 2 of 3
Pots won without showdown: 23

You need to reel these fish in. You can't just beat them over the head everytime you have a hand and expect them to call with tpwk. Some of them, yes, but I've seen a lot of players fold an ace on a board of A83 when I have 33. I don't mind taking s small pot with a good hand on a drawing board, but on when my opponents have very few outs, I'm going to keep the bets at a level they will call., whether that is 1/3 of the pot or the whole pot.

wtfsvi · #12 08-26-2005, 03:56 PM

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
If I raise on this flop, 3/4 of the time everyone folds.

[/ QUOTE ] If a pot sized raise/bet takes it down 3/4 of the time (where do you play? I wanna go there ) you should make a pot sized raise/bet every time the action is on you. With any two cards. Then tighten up when they start calling.

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kongo_totte · #13 08-26-2005, 03:59 PM

I agree, this is a safe board, but you have flopped monster in a 6-way pot, build that pot. The rason you raise is not to protect, it is to build a pot. If someone have anything to pay you off with, they are likely to have it on the flop. What hands do you hope someone will hit on the turn that they will pay you off with? Hit their A-kicker? I say people are just as likely to hit there gut shot as they are to improve to aces up.

Turn: UTG represents some form of weird draw. If he calls $7, he'll call $10.

River

Same thing as the turn. If he has something that will call $8, he will call $12-15.

GoCubsGo · #14 08-26-2005, 04:35 PM

I know this is only heads up, but here's an example of what happens 15x a day. I HAVE to raise because there's a flush and and inside straight draw, but I KNOW he's going to fold, despite just making a 1/2 pot bet.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) converter

CO ($18)
Hero ($48.50)
SB ($29.75)
BB ($66.95)
UTG ($49.70)
UTG+1 ($48.50)
MP1 ($17.50)
MP2 ($39.05)
MP3 ($50.65)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, MP1 calls $2.

Flop: ($5.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP1 bets $3, Hero raises to $8, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: $16.75

It seems when I get greedy and try to milk these guys, the're showing down hands like A8. You can't be overaggressive or they fold almost everything. And to the poster who suggested I try raising with any two cards - I bet almost every hand I'm in. They just fold the bad ones and call with the good ones. It has no effect on the amount of action I get because nobody pays attention. I do bet and raise most pots though, when I think there's a chance even a slight chance they don't have a huge hand. I win about half the pots I enter. (Looking at my current session, I have seen 27 flops, 8 from the BB. Of those 27, I have won 20 pots without showdown and 3 with showdown.) I make about half my money $1.50 at a time. It's easy to buy pots but hard to extract when you have something. That's why I get frustrated when I post a hand and get flamed for not making a PSR which has no chance of getting called.

#15 08-26-2005, 04:50 PM

This guy just goes on your buddy list.

I also think in the later discussion you make some valid points about the difficulty of building pots. More often than not, your best hands go begging for action. This has been my experience, too. My general rule is to increase the % of the pot I bet on each street, or with each successive bet. So, say I am leading the flop when I have hit a set. I will typically bet half to two thirds, depending on lots of things like texture. If I get called, the turn will be a psb. If I get raised and I reraise, it will usually be a pot-sized reraise. In other words, I try to induce a call on early streets and if I get customers, I just keep tightening the screws.

But, most of the time, you are right, the action goes I hit my set, checked to me, I bet half the pot, 2000 limpers fold.

4_2_it · #16 08-26-2005, 04:52 PM

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That's why I get frustrated when I post a hand and get flamed for not making a PSR which has no chance of getting called.

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You are not getting flamed. Most of the posters are pointing out that you are giving worse hands correct odds to call. If can tell your opponent has a weaker hand without a read then bet accordingly, but in most cases how sure will you be?

As far as your OP goes, every good poker player loses a lot of money on the short side of set over set and that is just the way it is. If not, he is not playing his set optimally.

Why slow play a set? Who folds to a 2/3 pot bet on the flop but bet/calls on the river? I can think of 4 examples --- 1) Villain catches straight (U lose) 2)Villain catches flush (U lose) 3) Villain catches full house (U lose if you are not top set) 4) Villain catches two pair (U win, but how much?) Players with TPTK and Two Pair will call or raise you on the flop.

I suggest you read some the posts on Fancy Play Syndrome, because slow-playing strong hands in hopes of somebody catching a second best hand is not an optimal play over the long run. You will think everyone is sucking out on you while you are giving them proper odds to call you down.

TheWorstPlayer · #17 08-26-2005, 04:57 PM

Buddy list, he hates money.

GoCubsGo · #18 08-26-2005, 05:06 PM

What's there to suck out on a A84 board? Admittedly, I used to suffer from FPS before coming here, but I no longer do. Typically I do not slow play sets because of what you said. If somebody is going to put money into a pot, it's likely they have something on the flop and will call a bet. However, in this particular situation, somebody with TPWK may fold to a big raise. Usually I think I like to get another bet of him on the turn before he gets scared away. Sometimes he'll even think he's committed, and sometimes he makes 2pair on the turn.

TheWorstPlayer · #19 08-26-2005, 05:09 PM

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I'm kind of tired of posts sayng bet the pot, raise more, etc. Where do you guys play because I want to go there!

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Party Poker

4_2_it · #20 08-26-2005, 05:37 PM

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What's there to suck out on a A84 board? Admittedly, I used to suffer from FPS before coming here, but I no longer do. Typically I do not slow play sets because of what you said. If somebody is going to put money into a pot, it's likely they have something on the flop and will call a bet. However, in this particular situation, somebody with TPWK may fold to a big raise. Usually I think I like to get another bet of him on the turn before he gets scared away. Sometimes he'll even think he's committed, and sometimes he makes 2pair on the turn.

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If this was your thought process for this hand only and not the typical way you play a bottom set, then I have no issue with your line.

My advice was put forth assuming this was a standard play on your part based upon my read of your OP and a couple of your follow-ups. I stand corrected.

I too am a FPS addict and have completed the 2+2 12 step program. However, I am cognizant that I could easily slide back into this trap if the right circumstances present themselves.