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#11
08-25-2005, 12:09 PM
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Re: Turn isolation raise
My inclination is to raise this preflop. You've got two horrible players limping in, and you'd like to be in the hand with them alone and out-play them postflop. Add to that, there's a good chance that on the flop you can get it HU with the maniac when MP1 checks, Maniac bets and you raise.
[ QUOTE ] With his weak tendencies I wanted to see how he reacted to a raise here. [/ QUOTE ] This is awful. He did exactly what tight-passive (btw, his stats show tight-passive, not weak-tight; what read do you have to call him weak-tight? he looks like a classic rock to me) players always do when faced with aggression, he retreated but didn't go away. You now know absolutely nothing about what he's holding, you only know he's unlikely to go away. This is why I wanted to be rid of him preflop. On the turn, if BB is holding AK/AQ (although it sure looks like he wouldn't have raised AQ preflop OOP), a raise might get rid of him, but since he's weak-tight he'll probably fold to 1, too. If he's holding an overpair, he's not going anywhere. In addition to top pair, you've still got a gutshot (not to the nuts) but your BDFD is gone. Call the turn, check/fold the river UI if BB is still around. 
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#12
08-25-2005, 12:21 PM
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Re: Turn isolation raise
Wow. You have an OOP tight-passive preflop raiser, putting you significantly behind nearly his entire hand range (the only thing you're ahead of is AK, and I doubt he's betting AK out on that flop even if it's [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s). So, I think 1 & 2 are probably shot, and what the weak players think of your hand (3 & 4) are the least of your problems.
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#14
08-25-2005, 12:53 PM
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Re: Turn isolation raise
When I first read this post I thought it was a great chance to get BB to fold a better hand than we have, and get isolated against a maniac we likely beat.
Now I'm looking at the stats and see BB has just raised his first hand in 45 (!) OOP no less which makes me think overpair more than UI overs and despite the read as weak-tight, am concerned he's really weak-passive and will just call down with the best hand here. So now I'm not so sure he'll really fold the best hand for 2 cold here, that he wouldn't do for one anyway. OP, do you have more info regarding the weak-tight read? Any fold or call down hands of interest on BB?
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#17
08-25-2005, 01:23 PM
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Re: Turn isolation raise
Yay for mass confusion over a preflop play. The limp is best, you have the button and a good multiway hand. You don't want to raise those particular opponents as LPPs and maniacs aren't going anywhere and you will almost always have to show down the best hand. Limp is right. I would say limp > raise > fold.
On the turn its an easy raise for value / maybe hand protection. You have already said what the maniac does when checked to in this position so I am assuming you usually have him beat. If you can get the rocky BB to fold an overpair that would be awesome, it probably won't happen, but if he has AK you wouldn't mind him folding either in a pot of this size. Also you have alot of outs against AA for example so even that isn't that bad. If the BB calls two I would check behind on the river unimproved. -DeathDonkey
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#18
08-25-2005, 01:45 PM
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Re: Turn isolation raise
[ QUOTE ]
If the BB calls two I would check behind on the river unimproved. [/ QUOTE ] I was playing this turn raise as a single shot to try and isolate the maniac. Bottom line is if BB coldcalls this (or worse yet pulls a c/r) I'm getting out of this hand unless I can see a free showdown or catch a J or 8 on the river.
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#19
08-25-2005, 01:50 PM
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Re: Turn isolation raise
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] With his weak tendencies I wanted to see how he reacted to a raise here. [/ QUOTE ] This is awful. He did exactly what tight-passive (btw, his stats show tight-passive, not weak-tight; what read do you have to call him weak-tight? he looks like a classic rock to me) players always do when faced with aggression, he retreated but didn't go away. [/ QUOTE ] I tend to agree that my raise probably didn't serve the purpose that I intended. He's not folding much of anything here and is not likely to three bet anything short of the nuts. Even his check on the turn isn't a sign of weakness, my flop raise probably just shut him down. If I didn't have the maniac here who I could have predicted would bet the turn I'd like the flop raise much better since I'm almost certain to shut down BB and MP1 allowing me to get a free look at the river.
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#20
08-25-2005, 01:54 PM
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Re: Turn isolation raise
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: J9s is a pretty marginal hand to play knowing you'll get raised by the maniac. I'm playing this hand cheap on weak/passive tables. [/ QUOTE ] The maniac is MP1 and his already limped so I don't fear a raise from him. If he was still to act behind me than I agree that I should lay it down because I don't really want to pay two to see the flop with J9s. With only the blinds left to act behind me and one of them being uber-tight I didn't expect this to get raised.
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