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#11
08-23-2005, 08:11 AM
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Re: PUSH or wait for small stack to be eleminated?
I'd wait for the small stack to go personally.
I think the villain's AJ call to a pushy type would be okay though, IF there's no small stack about to go. I've played this in a similar situation several times, and it's +EV overall IMHO (I can remember 2 times it wasn't, but both were against pairs above JJ - more often than not it's stuff like KQ or QJs, sometimes little pairs which luckily didn't stand up). I'd definitely not play it against anyone tight though. 
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#12
08-23-2005, 08:26 AM
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Re: PUSH or wait for small stack to be eleminated?
[ QUOTE ]
I'd definitely not play it against anyone tight though. [/ QUOTE ] I'd push any 2 against tighties, if they call with a monster, cest la vie.
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#13
08-23-2005, 09:48 AM
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Re: PUSH or wait for small stack to be eleminated?
[ QUOTE ]
I think the villain's AJ call to a pushy type would be okay though, IF there's no small stack about to go. [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. If the shorty was gone and we were ITM, this would be an easy call. However, the situation descibed by the OP is very different. Calling in that spot is horrendous, even if he thinks Hero is pushing any two. As for the AT push UTG, I think it's fine. You're only worried about a call by two of the players, and you have them both covered so they should be playing reasonably tight (tight by 20+2 standards [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]). The blinds are significant here, and you want to accumulate a chip lead if possible before shorty busts. I think the OP played it fine, but just got unlucky that some donk picked up a hand he thought was good enough to call with.
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#14
08-23-2005, 10:00 AM
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Re: PUSH or wait for small stack to be eleminated?
I fold this pretty much all of the time. Part of the reason the $22s are profitable is that people don't understand pushing/calling standards. And you don't want to push ATo into 2 players who don't understand calling standards and have the stacks to cripple you.
If small stack had 1000 chips, I would push this.
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#15
08-23-2005, 10:15 AM
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Re: PUSH or wait for small stack to be eleminated?
Well, I just did the the ICM analysis with SGA, and it turns out that this push is +EV across virtually every set of calling ranges I could come up with. This is definately a push, and the reason is that you have the other two big stacks covered. This means that even if you are called and lose, you still have a shot at the making the money because the other stack is so short.
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#16
08-23-2005, 10:28 AM
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Re: PUSH or wait for small stack to be eleminated?
[ QUOTE ]
I fold this pretty much all of the time. Part of the reason the $22s are profitable is that people don't understand pushing/calling standards. And you don't want to push ATo into 2 players who don't understand calling standards and have the stacks to cripple you. If small stack had 1000 chips, I would push this. [/ QUOTE ] Would you elaborate on calling standards... I think I have my own pushing standards down (not perfect, but ok), but I rarely win when I call... so I need help here (calling standards in the bubble and ITM) Thanks
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#17
08-23-2005, 10:29 AM
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Re: PUSH or wait for small stack to be eleminated?
[ QUOTE ]
I fold this pretty much all of the time. Part of the reason the $22s are profitable is that people don't understand pushing/calling standards. And you don't want to push ATo into 2 players who don't understand calling standards and have the stacks to cripple you. If small stack had 1000 chips, I would push this. [/ QUOTE ] I agree, and add the reason that you have been pushing a lot lately and don't want people getting sick and just calling with KQ, any pair, Ace bigger kicker. At the $11/$22 this happens a lot, someone pushes for a while and then someone gets the guts to call with crap. I like slowing down here and there just to have my opponent think i'm getting lucky with cards and not outplaying them through aggression.
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#18
08-23-2005, 10:48 AM
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Re: PUSH or wait for small stack to be eleminated?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I fold this pretty much all of the time. Part of the reason the $22s are profitable is that people don't understand pushing/calling standards. And you don't want to push ATo into 2 players who don't understand calling standards and have the stacks to cripple you. If small stack had 1000 chips, I would push this. [/ QUOTE ] Would you elaborate on calling standards... I think I have my own pushing standards down (not perfect, but ok), but I rarely win when I call... so I need help here (calling standards in the bubble and ITM) Thanks [/ QUOTE ] Basically if hero pushes here the blinds should have ultra-tight calling standards (QQ-AA, possibly JJ and AKs) because of the small stack. But I see people calling with 99, AJ etc all the time simply because they don't understand that the only ones helped by such a call is the two players not involved in the hand. They base their call mainly based on their own hand and fail to recognize all the other factors that turn this from a maybe-call to an auto-fold.
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#19
08-23-2005, 10:55 AM
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Re: PUSH or wait for small stack to be eleminated?
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I just did the the ICM analysis with SGA, and it turns out that this push is +EV across virtually every set of calling ranges I could come up with. This is definately a push, and the reason is that you have the other two big stacks covered. This means that even if you are called and lose, you still have a shot at the making the money because the other stack is so short. [/ QUOTE ] And this highlights the big weakness with ICM. It only deals with here and now and not what will come.
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#20
08-23-2005, 10:56 AM
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Re: PUSH or wait for small stack to be eleminated?
[ QUOTE ]
20+2 200/400 Hero is UTG with ATo and T 2700 OTHER stacks: UTG+1 - 450 SB - 2450 BB - 2400 You've been pushing a lot before. Do you push here? What calling ranges do you put on the other big stacks assuming that it is a 22$ tournament? Actual results (and one additional question) are below in white. <font color="white"> </font> [/ QUOTE ] This will probably sound atrocious. But, you are the big stack, and can put anyone out if they call you're all in. (the faint of heart should look away), but I don't mind minraising in a situation like this (every hand) until you pushed back and no longer have the chip lead. Since the shorty is so short, people should be terrified of going out right before this. I wish the blinds were smaller. Then something like this wouldn't have to be discussed. I'd fold ATo here, and wait for him to bust if you don't like raising 1/3 or your stack with a possibility of losing it. But really, while you're risking 1/3 of your stack, you stand to gain 1/5 if you take the blinds If you sucessfully min raise 2 times and get the blinds, you've paid for the one time you get pushed. Which is why I don't mind it so much.
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