67s, great flop but 2 bets to you?

[baronzeus]

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And yes. Call the turn. Your implied odds if you hit are huge.

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I don't agree with this at all. Overcalling gets you one more BB max. Anyone with an 8 (and he's turbo-raising you), flush draw, and maybe even a 3 is going nowhere. Anyone else is probably shitting bricks at this board and is getting out of the way. Anyone who whiffs is paying off diddly on the river but will pay lots to draw, and there is almost nothing in made hands that likes their holding right now. Even a made straight may slow down on the river if you hit because they know you see four to a straight and you really do not give a [censored].

If someone behind you has the straight, they are going to war anyway. If they do not, they either have a decent draw (and will pay for it) or have little to nothing and will probably not even pay a bet to peel.

-K

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So you're saying this, from what I can see.

People who are going to fold are going to fold anyways.

People who are going to go to war are going to war anyways.

A few things.

1) You do not have the equity to raise if you are behind.
2) Calling instead of raising allows for getting an extra raise in on the river when you hit.
3) Raising opens you to get 3bet, which is a disaster.
4) You can't be worried about a higher flush draw, ever, unless you see it going multiple bets on multiple streets.
5) People who are behind you are likely drawing to 2, 3, or 4 outs.


I don't understand what you are saying. You are saying raise, because it will frighten off the straights? Please, raise here in my game, and I will gladly 3bet you with my straight, every time.

[MATT111]

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And yes. Call the turn. Your implied odds if you hit are huge.

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I don't agree with this at all. Overcalling gets you one more BB max. Anyone with an 8 (and he's turbo-raising you), flush draw, and maybe even a 3 is going nowhere. Anyone else is probably shitting bricks at this board and is getting out of the way. Anyone who whiffs is paying off diddly on the river but will pay lots to draw, and there is almost nothing in made hands that likes their holding right now. Even a made straight may slow down on the river if you hit because they know you see four to a straight and you really do not give a [censored].

If someone behind you has the straight, they are going to war anyway. If they do not, they either have a decent draw (and will pay for it) or have little to nothing and will probably not even pay a bet to peel.

-K

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What do you think MP1 holds?
The way he played the hand so far makes it very unlikely he holds anything we beat.
Raising is pretty bad.

[bjarne]

At first I thought raise, but then I changed my mind.

Call turn. Raising the turn here you likely to face a reraise. Besides you may be drawing dead to the flush.
The straight draw you had on the flop is now completely gone
(split pot at best). If your flush draw is dead you have only 4 outs. So you can't afford a reraise.

I can almost see MP1 is smiling behind his 88 waiting for your raise.

[Shillx]

Raise again for value. This should be pretty clear. Try and get these people out so we can chop this pot against one player instead of 3 if something like the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hits. Everyone that says to call here needs to rethink their game IMO. This is a VERY CLEAR raise for many reasons.

If everyone calls, we get value. We probably have 13 wins in the deck, so we get value if everyone plays along (even if we sometimes lose to a better flush). You also have to consider that we will sometimes have the best hand to begin with. If we do have the best hand, we would like for them to fold out whatever they have since they have 6 outs to a chop chop. Better yet, we want them to pay 2 bets to draw to that chop chop (and they will). We would especially like a hand such as T9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to go away since it could wipe us out on the river if an eight comes. Make him either pay through the nose or fold his chance of winning a doozy.

We also have good implied odds if someone does have a straight since the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] both put straights on the board. Everyone will figure that we have a chop, and we could scoop up a monster if one of those cards hit (even more so if someone makes a big flush).

Brad

[stlip]

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Raise again for value. This should be pretty clear.

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Not so clear until you explain it. I missed it when I first reviewed the hand, now I see it.

[Shillx]

Did you see how big the friggin pot is?

If you call, someone behind you can call correctly with T9 or 9x and bust us. There is a decent chance that we are good here (and we have an ass kicking draw if we aren't) so let's bring the pain to anyone looking to draw to a better straight or a chop. Even if someone flipped up a straight, we still get value on the raise if all 4 people stay in the hand. Hell, we almost get value if just 3 people see the river since we have a chance of getting a chop out of it. This isn't the time to get passive. If we are losing the baby, we are going down in flames.

You also have to consider the EXTRA implied odds that we get by going nuts on the turn at little to no cost to us (if someone does happen to have an 8). If the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] comes on the river, it is game on. Everyone will "know" that we have a straight and we will sweep the floor clean with our boat. Similar comments apply to the times that we make a flush.

Brad

[aK13]

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Did you see how big the friggin pot is?

If you call, someone behind you can call correctly with T9 or 9x and bust us. There is a decent chance that we are good here (and we have an ass kicking draw if we aren't) so let's bring the pain to anyone looking to draw to a better straight or a chop. Even if someone flipped up a straight, we still get value on the raise if all 4 people stay in the hand. Hell, we almost get value if just 3 people see the river since we have a chance of getting a chop out of it. This isn't the time to get passive. If we are losing the baby, we are going down in flames.

You also have to consider the EXTRA implied odds that we get by going nuts on the turn at little to no cost to us (if someone does happen to have an 8). If the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] comes on the river, it is game on. Everyone will "know" that we have a straight and we will sweep the floor clean with our boat. Similar comments apply to the times that we make a flush.

Brad

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I still disagree with raising here. Our equity is approximately 30% at this point, assuming we are behind a straight. Our equity isn't enough to raise unless we get all 4 players to call.

We might still be ahead, granted, but I believe that trying to get a weak pair to overcall behind us praying for a chop is fantastic here since the draw doens't come in the majority of the time, and we might score another BB from him if MP1 bluffs the river again and the pair overcalls, and possibly Button with raise it for us on the turn, trapping the field.

Also, I think that we lose more when we are behind but win the same when we are ahead if we raise.

The thoughts are kinda [censored] up, since I'm tired as hell right now, but hopefully something meaningful is there.

I'm not convinced raising is right.

[lionhorse]

Flop play is nice and aggressive. Raise the turn, I don't see MP1 raising the flop with a guthsot.

[MATT111]

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Flop play is nice and aggressive. Raise the turn, I don't see MP1 raising the flop with a guthsot.

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He could well have a8 (+FD?).
His most likely holdings are a set or a7. He could also have flopped a str8 if he`s very wild preflop.

[ArturiusX]

Easy raise?