Free Showdown Play with TT

[A_C_Slater]

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Looks like a misapplication of the free showdown play to me. I'd call his river bet, but I'd also bet the river if he checked.

Rob

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Why?

What hand does he have that TT has beat?

[naphand]

No I am not always passive on the flop but I have been working against a tendency to get too FPS AND pick some spots delayed raises. Your remark is very valid and something I need to be careful with.

I figured OP would consider a Turn raise much more significant and was consequently more likely to fold. I do not think he folds to a Flop raise with any kind of pair or overcards.

I just noticed that the 3-straight that appears on the board will give him enough justification to call with a hand like A5/A3/56, all of which would be consistent with his action on every street. Ho-hum.

[Entity]

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Looks like a misapplication of the free showdown play to me. I'd call his river bet, but I'd also bet the river if he checked.

Rob

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Why?

What hand does he have that TT has beat?

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A wide variety of hands, often A5s-ish in nature, but sometimes 88, 99, 77, 66, and worse, depending on how loose the player is. His action is often a pocket pair and will still call down because "they always put you on AK."

The river is actually a close decision but of the last dozen times I've made this call or so, I've been shown A5 often enough (by far) to make this call.

Rob

[A_C_Slater]

He puts you on AK and bets the river K?

It looks like he has KJ to me.

[Entity]

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He puts you on AK and bets the river K?

It looks like he has KJ to me.

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The vast majority of players checkraise two pair on this river. Especially suspected LAGs.

My thoughts, from AIM:

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[12:28] me: but I'd also bet the river if SB checked
[12:29] me: so I think free showdowning there is wrong
[12:29] deathdonkey: agreed
[12:29] deathdonkey: but id fold river
[12:29] me: because most people free showdown with the best hand too often
[12:29] me: nope
[12:29] me: "SB seems LAG"
[12:29] me: that's enough for me
[12:29] me: I get shown 88 and A5s and even 65s and desperation [censored] bluffs there all the time
[12:29] me: couple that with no reads
[12:29] me: and the fact that IMO, the most important read to have is what people bet into the PFR
[12:30] me: I see a showdown
[12:30] deathdonkey: ya ok
[12:30] deathdonkey: but i dont like my hand
[12:30] me: I like it enough
[12:30] me: I like mine about 30% of the time
[12:30] me: guesstimating
[12:30] me: I don't pay off a c/r
[12:30] me: but I pay off a bet

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Rob

[jjacky]

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It meets my criteria for the FSP because you can fold on the turn if 3bet and value bet the river if you hit your ten. But he counters your FSP by employing the dreaded donk bet!

You still lose the same amount though if you fold. That's why these plays are better when you have middle pair because then you have 5 outs you can hit on the river.

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whether this is a FSP depends on the intention when raising the turn. the opener made a FSP, but if i would raise, it wouldn't be a FSP, because i would have the intention to bet a blanc on the river if it gets checked to me.

[naphand]

I folded to the River donk, reasoning if he still wants to bet me with a card must consider likely for my "AK" he has to have me beat.

Only later did I notice that the Turn makes a lot of hands playable (i.e. worth calling my raise), hands like 65 or perhaps 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]; there is now a gutshot and backdoor flush and board still is not that scary (so he may still fancy his chances of winning with any pair).

I am interested that Entity says he gets shown worse handa lot in these spots, my experience is the opposite, I actually cannot recall winning a donked River with only 1-pair (esp. an underpair) after a player either raised my flop bet or bet into me. OOP I can check-call and pick off a bluff nut that K is a mighty big card to bluff into a PFR with pair under JJ.

It still bugs me, but judging from the disparate opinions there is not easy exit. I hate folding to donk-bets.

EDIT: With hindsight I think the appearance of the additoinal draws makes this a good place to make this play, if he is calling with a turned-draw I am getting extra value unavailable on the River, no?

i love the turn play here (though I'd have raised the flop). it's a great time for the free showdown play, because you're either way behind a jack or way in front of a draw that won't pay you off on the river.

clearly, the river is a fold. he wasn't scared by your turn raise and you only beat a total bluff, which you almost never see in this spot except from real maniacs.

edit: okay i just realized this is 2/4. i don't know much about that game, so maybe people are nuts and try desperate bluffs on the river?? i'd still fold though.

[oreogod]

does anybody take the line call/call/call ? Its either that or raising the flop, betting the turn..etc

[flair1239]

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Part of the play is that you can fold to a 3 bet or a bet into you on the river. If you can't do that then you can not make this play more profitable than calling down against this opponent.

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This was my thought as well.

To me if the opponent is Laggy, you could very well end up getting raised by a lesser PP or a smaller pair with a gutshot. So you would have to call. I don't like being in that position.

On the other hand it is likely he will fire again on the river or if he checks you can bet.

I am just calling the whole way here. I see no urgent reason to make him fold HU.