I am so proud of myself - Page 2

ThaHero · #11 08-05-2005, 05:44 PM

Well at the flop we don't know that both players have flush draws yet. By raising it's slightly possible a flush draw folds. But you might want to protect your Ace as well, or protect against weak straight draws.

If they are definately on draws it's likely that they will check the turn. Here they bet. But let's say they check, and you bet. That's only 1 BB from each. If you raise the flop and they check and you bet the turn, that's 1.5 BB. If I'm wrong I'll take correction but that's what I'm looking at.

ismisus · #12 08-05-2005, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Mistake #1: Never post outside of the BB in a short-handed game.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, I was just toying around at lower limits
[ QUOTE ]

Mistake #2: On a 6-seated table, A8s is an automatic raise from any position. This is even more true after you posted. Raising here would in effect be risking 1 SB to win 2.5, and holding what is probably the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here I disagree, I have no chance at winning the pot pre-flop. This is .50/1 shorthanded hold em. I am likely to get called in many spots, especially since they don't know who I am! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]...Later on, when they see that I often showdown good hands, I will raise with A8s. Since I have a chance of taking the flop post-flop, even if I don't hit. In 5/10, I raise this most of the time.

bozlax · #13 08-05-2005, 05:57 PM

First, let's make it readable:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero (poster) checks, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (9 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11 BB

There, that's better.

Uh, where's this pride you speak of coming from? You missed a preflop raise, you missed the value raise on the flop, and I don't see being proud of folding top two pair for one bet on the river in a big pot...you bad, here, 95% of the time?

Vote4Pedro · #14 08-05-2005, 05:59 PM

if you're a 5/10 player, why are you asking a .05/.10 question? Good players are giving you advice and your brushing it off like nothing

Harv72b · #15 08-05-2005, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well here I disagree, I have no chance at winning the pot pre-flop. This is .50/1 shorthanded hold em. I am likely to get called in many spots, especially since they don't know who I am! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]...Later on, when they see that I often showdown good hands, I will raise with A8s. Since I have a chance of taking the flop post-flop, even if I don't hit. In 5/10, I raise this most of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not about getting them to fold preflop, it's about getting them to put more money in with worse hands. A8s is going to be the best starting hand at a 6max table a lot. And especially at .50/1, your raise is going to be called by weaker aces, crap suited cards, and all other sorts of hands that you hold a significant equity advantage over.

As a basic rule of thumb, if it's folded to you (or you're UTG) in a 6max game and you want to play your hand, raise. If you can play even halfway decently postflop, this will show a positive return.

benkath1 · #16 08-05-2005, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if you're a 5/10 player, why are you asking a .05/.10 question? Good players are giving you advice and your brushing it off like nothing

[/ QUOTE ]

And when and where are you playing 5/10? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

ismisus · #17 08-05-2005, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if you're a 5/10 player, why are you asking a .05/.10 question? Good players are giving you advice and your brushing it off like nothing

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not brushing off anyone's advice. I am not asking for super micro limit advice, I am asking a .5/1 advice. So far I have gotten three critiques.

1. Raise pre-flop
-They'll call me down with any pair, so I need to hit the flop. Since I am planning to hit the flop, I want to see it as cheaply as possible. I just don't get why this logic is flawed.

2. Raise on the flop
This is a close decision. Here is what I was thinking when I was making the call on the flop

1. Flop bettor will 90% of the time will fire on the turn, no matter what he has.
2. I might stop his bluff
3. I will earn an extra 1BB from him on the turn
4. I might get the 3rd guy to call with virtually nothing.

I figured if I raised on the flop, the 3rd guy wouldn't call me. The original bettor would either check fold on the turn or check call me all the way.
I just don't understand why you guys think its flawed logic

3. fold on the river
I almost never do this, I was so proud of that fold, that I quickly posted on 2+2. I thought my play was good, but now you guys are questioning me. Now I am questioning myself, which is great. Thanks.

Note: I am not a 5/10 player, I just sometimes play it. I am not a limit player at all. Mostly I play tourneys, where laying down is very important..please show me the light!

Aaron W. · #18 08-05-2005, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Should I be raising A8s? I don't like to play too aggressive with marginal hands pre-flop versus loose calling stations, since most of the time I need to hit the flop in order to proceed. I only raise marginal hands when people are tighter, and therefore my raise will yield a heads up pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, raise A8s. A8s is probably a top 15% hand in a short-handed game. It's a value raise against loose blinds (who call with bad hands) and it will do a better job (compared to checking) at shutting out the players left to act behind you, increasing your position and your chances of winning the pot. The times you want to worry yourself about this is when the players behind you are smart aggressive preflop (willing to iso-3-bet you) and solid postflop (not what you would find at any low limit SH game).

[ QUOTE ]
The flop call was meant for me to yield more money.
1. The flop bettor will for sure bet on the turn, but he might not call on the turn
2. I will get .5BB more from the bettor if I raise on the turn
3. I don't want to chase out the 3rd guy who might be holding any pair, and is virtually drawing dead

[/ QUOTE ]

1. You have no reads. Why is for "for sure" going to bet the turn? If he has junk when he bet this flop (which is what I think you mean by 'will bet but might not call'), then you're not going to get much out of him anyway. On the other hand, if he has a decent hand, you may get more flop action out of him, as players are generally more aggressive on the flop.

2. See #1 about reads and your ability to get the raise in.

3. Keeping donk around is okay, but I'm not enthusiastic about it. He's going to find a call against a flop raise with a wide range of hands (any ace, flush draw, straight draw, maybe even gutshots). If there were fewer draws open on the board, then playing it slow has more value. This is not the sort of flop where you want to get cute.

ThaHero · #19 08-05-2005, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. Raise pre-flop
-They'll call me down with any pair, so I need to hit the flop. Since I am planning to hit the flop, I want to see it as cheaply as possible. I just don't get why this logic is flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise, you get greater value out of the hand when you hit. Most of the time, you will have the best hand going into the flop. Let's say you get two callers. If you raise, you have put in 33% of the money, but since your hand is strong, let's say you are a 50% favorite. This is called a Pot Equity edge. You invested 33% of the money when you will win 50% of the time. If your opponents invest 33% of the money and are at 25% each preflop they don't have an edge.

I don't have one of those hand % generators in front of me now, but A8s vs. Jx and 94s is a nice favorite, I'm sure.

ismisus · #20 08-05-2005, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And when and where are you playing 5/10?

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This would be fun to simulate on PartyPoker. This what probably what would happen against those overaggressive donks.

I can't mess around with thing for too long, so here it is
-Lets just say I am UTG with A8s, and I played couple hands (not posting UTG [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])
-I raise pre-flop. Everyone folds to SB, who will probably either 3-bet me or call with KdJd depending on his aggression. BB folds
-Flop 6h 8d Ad. He'll bet out, I'll raise him, he'll 3-bet me, and I'll call.
-Turn 2h. He'll bet out, I'll raise him, he'll call.
-River 7d. He'll check. I'll bet. He'll raise. I call

Then I proceed to insulting him

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero bets, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, 1 fold.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

River: (8 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB