A problem I have with Atheism

[zipo]

SDM - I didn't mean for my post to come off in a bad way.

The cites I mentioned shaped my own thinking about these questions in a big way was all I meant to offer.

[David Sklansky]

"There doesn't need to be a god in order for there to be morality"

Yes there does. Even people who do what they consider "moral" when they don't "feel" like it or don't "benefit" from it are are not really being inherently moral. They are deriving what might be called "second level" pleasure or satisfaction from their willpower (See PGL) or their ability to make "morality" the most important human endeavor. But it is still selfish. And these same people were often slaveowners.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
"There doesn't need to be a god in order for there to be morality"

Yes there does. Even people who do what they consider "moral" when they don't "feel" like it or don't "benefit" from it are are not really being inherently moral. They are deriving what might be called "second level" pleasure or satisfaction from their willpower (See PGL) or their ability to make "morality" the most important human endeavor. But it is still selfish. And these same people were often slaveowners.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you equate morality with rules mandated by a higher authority, then clearly you do need god to be moral. However, having a secular system of laws as well as a system of mores in place as we do in our society, "acting morally" could also fall under these two categories.

I'm quite surprised you agree with NotReady that a higher authority is necessary for morality or a system of ethics to exist. Do you also agree with him that god must exist for meaning to exist in the world? If so, how do you come to that conclusion through logic?

[David Sklansky]

"I'm quite surprised you agree with NotReady that a higher authority is necessary for morality or a system of ethics to exist. Do you also agree with him that god must exist for meaning to exist in the world? If so, how do you come to that conclusion through logic?"

Not sure what you mean by meaning. But I think the answer is yes.

The three way debate between myself, Not Ready and once and future king seems to boil down to (forgive me if I did a bad job of capturing their positions):

Not Ready:

There is no morality or meaning without God

Life sucks without morality or meaning.

Therefore life sucks if there is no God.


Once and Future King:

God is not necessary and in fact maybe a hindrence to meaning and morality.

Life sucks without morality or meaning

Therefore life is at least as good if not better if there is no God.


David Sklansky:

There is no morality or meaning without God.

Life can be perfectly fine without intrinsic morality or meaning. (Just ask kids or dolphins).

Therefore trying to figure out what makes life meaningful is only worth doing if you find it fun.

[Aytumious]

Thanks for the clarification, David. I had incorrectly inferred through some of your posts that you had the same position as NotReady on this topic, which I found surprising.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
"There doesn't need to be a god in order for there to be morality"

Yes there does. Even people who do what they consider "moral" when they don't "feel" like it or don't "benefit" from it are are not really being inherently moral. They are deriving what might be called "second level" pleasure or satisfaction from their willpower (See PGL) or their ability to make "morality" the most important human endeavor. But it is still selfish. And these same people were often slaveowners.

[/ QUOTE ]

This just shows that morality isn't selfless not that morality doesn't exist.

[PokerAmateur4]

I agree with DS far more than any of the other 2 perspectives.

It pretty much sums up what I deduce with logic but I take it to a further extent of question.

My current conclusion on ethics and the universe at large is that it is all a toss up. While there appears to be no "ultimate universal" value on anything in a profound sense(i.e. stealing is a negative value for the universe), I am not convinced that we can draw a conclusion on anything at all.

I follow your logic in your statement that:
"
Life can be perfectly fine without intrinsic morality or meaning.
"
DS, but then ask you this: What makes it perfectly fine for a human being to live without meaning? If you conclude that there is no value to something, how do you then value that practice of being?

Pardon my lack of eloquence on all of this.

I feel that a statement like
"Stealing is wrong" or any statement really...
Can be followed by a series of "Why?"s which lead to the logical conclusion that nothing can be known.

Bottom line: Nothing can be known, everything is too profound.

-PA

PS: This may lead to interesting concepts for some: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
SDM - I didn't mean for my post to come off in a bad way.

The cites I mentioned shaped my own thinking about these questions in a big way was all I meant to offer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't find a trace of negativity in your post zipo, and I'm up to chapter 4 of the brothers Karamozov and enjoying it.

I hope also it will make me see some things in a different light.

Cheers,
SDM

I am a Christian Orthodox. I was baptized without being asked like the majority here in Greece. I only know the basic stuff about my religion. Nobody teached me that I should go to church to earn the eternal life and I only go there when I feel like.
I don’t know if God exists but I feel that there must be something out there. I accept all religions even atheism or agnosticism because in a way all believe in something (even nothing is something).
What I believe is that when we are alive, we consume an amount of energy, that when we die should transform in something, other wise where does all that energy goes?

My father said to me once “My daughter, there are three elements in a person. Logic, instinct and sentiment. If your life depends on instinct you’ll live like an animal. If your life depends on logic you’ll live like a robot and if your life depends on sentiment you’ll live like a sentimental fool. Try to balance these three and you will always be happy”
So I try to live like this and always be happy and when I’ll die I hope, if there is an afterlife to be like the one I am living now because I don’t know if spirits can have fun.

[SPhilly]

Never thought I would reply to post here but...
DS your stance is probably the most intellectually honest. Without God meaning (to life) cannot exist without some artificially constructed meaning.
However it is a logical argument to say that belief in God is artificially constructed to provide meaning.

(BTW this is a geat forum. Although more often then not things discussed here are so far over my head I feel like a midget in a corn field).