10/20 6max: a quick flop decision - A7o

[Surfbullet]

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fold preflop

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This hasn't contributed anything to the discussion. Maybe you fold here preflop. It's largely irrelevant to the discussion - I choose to raise down to A7o on the CO, and it's worked for me.

Button is very predictable and I like to get as many opportunities to play against him as possible. If I raise and he calls me with TJo or K9 or A2 or 33 leaving me OOP that's fine.

Surf

[baronzeus]

Right. I think I bet the flop here and probably the turn too.

[MicroBob]

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There are virtually no hands that will fold this flop.

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isn't there a reasonable chance that ONE of them folds here? and maybe puts you more squarely in the lead with fewer outs to dodge?

you bet, button calls with...whatever (because he thinks you're just betting here because you raised PF), SB is going to have a tough time calling here with T6s. He has to figure one of you has a pair and it's not worth staying in.
(note - the fact that he checked helps the chances that he'll fold when it comes back to him imo).

Now you're heads-up against a calling station button who most likely has a worse hand than yours.

[Cancuk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop

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This hasn't contributed anything to the discussion. Maybe you fold here preflop. It's largely irrelevant to the discussion - I choose to raise down to A7o on the CO, and it's worked for me.

Button is very predictable and I like to get as many opportunities to play against him as possible. If I raise and he calls me with TJo or K9 or A2 or 33 leaving me OOP that's fine.

Surf

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since you took such offense to what i have said, although i think it is the best advice on this hand, i will continue as if i was in the hand (which would mean i was tilting).
i would bet the flop and hope that one of them folds, preferably the button (for position reasons only (although i think that the button would be the one to call, judging by your description)). If one of them did fold, i would bet the turn on a blank or anything that improved me...im' not sure what i would do on a scare card.

If both called and the turn was anything but an ace, i would check/fold....inless i hit an openender, in which case i would check/call.

cheers.

[Surfbullet]

Hey Cancuk,

I didn't take offense to your post per se, being told "fold preflop" did little for the discussion and I am well aware of the pros and cons of raising in this situation.

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i would bet the flop and hope that one of them folds, preferably the button (for position reasons only (although i think that the button would be the one to call, judging by your description)). If one of them did fold, i would bet the turn on a blank or anything that improved me...im' not sure what i would do on a scare card.

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Taken in a vacuum, this is reasonable. However, if we get only 1 caller we'd probably like to bet any turn face card or other scare card, because we are unlikely to get folds on a blank-type card, though that makes our hand slightly more likely to be ahead still.

In retrospect I shouldn't have even posted this. This is one of those "okay, i've bet lots of flops recently, time to check one because it's going to be a tough fight for this pot anyway and it'll be good for my image, maybe i'll get a free card and improve" types of things.

Surf

[Surfbullet]

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[ QUOTE ]

There are virtually no hands that will fold this flop.

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isn't there a reasonable chance that ONE of them folds here? and maybe puts you more squarely in the lead with fewer outs to dodge?

you bet, button calls with...whatever (because he thinks you're just betting here because you raised PF), SB is going to have a tough time calling here with T6s. He has to figure one of you has a pair and it's not worth staying in.
(note - the fact that he checked helps the chances that he'll fold when it comes back to him imo).

Now you're heads-up against a calling station button who most likely has a worse hand than yours.

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I like your reasoning bob.

I guess at the time I estimated that certain things needed to go right for me to win this particular pot: Both opponents had to miss the flop, one or both had to dislike his hand enough to fold the flop, and I had to dodge a number of cards on the turn (and possibly river) against 1 or 2 opponents who may collectively have a ton of outs.

This was mostly a metagame thing - I can't bet every single flop, and this is as good a one as any to do so. Not sure why I posted it, because it made sense to me at the time - I guess I just wanted to make sure it wasn't catastrophically bad or something.

Surf

[MicroBob]

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"okay, i've bet lots of flops recently, time to check one because it's going to be a tough fight for this pot anyway and it'll be good for my image, maybe i'll get a free card and improve"

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true. i've pushed myself into taking that attitude more often just for slowing-down-sake (since I generally play way too fast anyway).


Still not sure this is the time to try it....but obviously I wasn't there for the previous hands either.

No, you can't bet EVERY flop. You're right. But you don't bet every flop anyway, such as those times where you flop a flush or straight or set and decide to sandbag a little. If you feel you need to balance your flop play, waiting to bet out or raise until the turn with your superstrong hands does that.

Some of the other reasons you gave seem like examples of negative thinking, which contradicts a preflop raise you made w/ A7. Your preflop play is an example of positive thinking, an aggressive move you made that would win you the pot right away despite the possibility of AK or AQ or another dominant hand left to act in the blinds. Your postflop fears of draws, etc., are real, but similar circumstances didn't stop you from raising preflop. And postflop, your reward for 1 SB is 7 SB in the pot, which is higher than preflop.

My thoughts are probably superficial, but someone said, if you're going to think, don't think too much.

[exist]

i always bet my flushes, straights, and sets because if there is one fault that the vast majority of my opponents have, it is that they call too much.

the OP should bet this flop. i think the time to check it might be if he had a QT type hand instead of Ace high.

[wackjob]

Glad you posted this hand because I find myself in the same situation very frequently. 90% of the time I autobet this flop, however I will check it on occassion, especially when I know there are serious calling stations or just or idiots in the blinds who call any raise(the "i'm already half-in" folks) because I'm used to A5-A9 not holding up to these types of players.

Depending on the players, I will sometimes check in hopes that they bet, and I can c/r. I've found this a good way to take down the pot on the flop many times, but this is dependent upon who my opponents are.

One last comment.. I think it is a MISTAKE to FOLD A7o from the CO(assuming it is folded to you), especially when you have weak players left to act and you have a decent chance of buying the button. If you look at hand charts, or just ask other players, many are raising hands as weak as Q8 suited from the CO. I'll take my A7 any day of the week over a Q8 suited. A7 has showdown value unimproved in SH play, Q8 does not.

Surf - ever tried a checkraise here?