75-150 Taj Hand - Page 2

Jeffage · #11 07-31-2005, 10:26 PM

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In response to your first point, if you checkraise the flop and villain 3-bets, you can safely fold and save yourself 1.5 BB

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If you're my opponent and you 3-bet me with something like QJs btf, wouldn't you 3-bet the flop if I checkraised you so you could look at the whole hand? So checkraising the flop with the intent to fold to a 3-bet could cost me the pot (besides the other negatives mentioned).

Jeff

TheBusiness · #12 07-31-2005, 10:27 PM

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There is also a good chance he'd 3-bet me with something like 66. Why would I want to stop him from continuing to bet that?

Jeff

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You're right, you wouldn't want to stop him. But you described villain in your post as a "pretty solid pro." And a pretty solid pro usually wouldn't continue to bluff off 2.5 BB in a 75/150 game from the flop to the river with only a pair of sixes when the board is not showing any draws. If he did, congrats on maximizing your profit with A10, but I don't think that happens often enough to play the hand the way you did.

afish · #13 07-31-2005, 10:29 PM

Don't be so sure that a three bet defines his hand. Here's a hand I played recently in a 20-40 game at the Borgata:

I am in the big blind with J8o. Four players see a flop of 997. I bet, a player raises, I three bet, and he folds.

sthief09 · #14 07-31-2005, 10:32 PM

against an aggressive player I think this is an easy check-call. a bet out has "bet my weak A and fold to a raise" written all over it. I think it's a lot better if he's tricky enough to actually do that routinely so you can bet-call, but that's a stretch so I'd rather just bet. maybe he'll bet kings or queens anyway.

the difficulty in the river is exactly why he's 3-betting you lightly there. he has position, so you just have to submit to being outplayed.

TheBusiness · #15 07-31-2005, 10:34 PM

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In response to your first point, if you checkraise the flop and villain 3-bets, you can safely fold and save yourself 1.5 BB

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If you're my opponent and you 3-bet me with something like QJs btf, wouldn't you 3-bet the flop if I checkraised you so you could look at the whole hand? So checkraising the flop with the intent to fold to a 3-bet could cost me the pot (besides the other negatives mentioned).

Jeff

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I'd muck QJ before the flop rather than 3-bet it, and I'd probably also fold to a flop checkraise, unless I think my opponent is capable of checkraising the flop on a pure bluff, which, from playing with you, I would not think you would do very often.

TheBusiness · #16 07-31-2005, 10:43 PM

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Don't be so sure that a three bet defines his hand. Here's a hand I played recently in a 20-40 game at the Borgata:

I am in the big blind with J8o. Four players see a flop of 997. I bet, a player raises, I three bet, and he folds.

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Different stakes, different villain, different preflop action, and completely different cards. This anecdote has nothing to do with the hand we were discussing.

phish · #17 07-31-2005, 10:44 PM

This is one of those classic situations where you're either ahead or behind and neither of you are drawing very live if behind. If he has KK or QQ or so, he has a two-outer, and if he has AK or AQ, you have a 3-outer.
Since you don't know where you're at, you want to minimize your loss if behind, and maximize your win if ahead. And the best way to maximize your win is probably to let him bluff or allow him to bet his QQ thinking it may be best. Likewise, to minimize your loss, checking and calling is probably best. And it just so happens that the same course of action actually achieves both goals simultaneously.

As for the idea of raising to 'get info': getting info is only useful if you can make use of that info efficiently. Let's say you ckraise and he calls. Now you bet and he raises and you fold. Well, you've just paid two bets 'to get info' that you could've gotten for 2.5 bets, which would have ensured that you didn't get bluffed out and also give you that river draw to hit your kicker.

I hear idiotic statements about making raises (on the turn sometimes) to find out 'where you're at'. Knowing where you're at is of no benefit if it doesn't gain you anything real. In many of these cases you're much better off just calling down.

Is that passive poker? Yes, but aggression for the sake of aggression itself is of no value. You have to know why you're being aggressive and why you may want to turn passive.

sfer · #18 07-31-2005, 11:35 PM

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Jeff,

I don't like A10 from middle position in a full game for precisely this reason, so I'd muck preflop. But since you didn't, you need to find out earlier whether your kicker is any good by betting or checkraising the flop. But given how you played it I would probably check-call the river, although I'd advise making a decision about your hand before that point.

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This is horrible advice. TOP basic stuff. We don't want to find out what our kicker is worth, for a couple of reasons.

First is that to do so will cost us roughly the same amount of bets as just showing our hand down.

Second, by trying to "figure out where we are" we now let the button know EXACTLY where we are, and prevent him from making any mistakes on the big bet streets.

Third trying to approach the hand this way against this sort of opponent gives him an opportunity to force us into a pot sized mistake with a "free showdown" turn raise.

I think preflop this is an easy raise, you just happend to get iso 3 bet by a good player. That sucks. Don't make it worse by giving him a chance to out play you.

I check/call the whole way, and feel good doing so. Hopefully he bets the river and if nothing else you get to see his hand.

thoughts?

lf

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So your solution is to raise preflop, get isolated, and then call down the whole way when there is a pretty damn good chance he has AK, AQ, AJ or a flopped set. I think that is horrible advice.

And in response to your first point, if you checkraise the flop and villain 3-bets, you can safely fold and save yourself 1.5 BB.

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Yikes. I don't like the notion of not openraising a decent but not overwhelming hand for fear of getting 3-bet, nor do I like the notion of spraying intending to fold to an aggro player with a pair of Aces.

FWIW, I raised a terrible UTG limper today 3 off the button with ATo today and two very good players behind me and would do so every time. Just because one of them 3-bet isn't enough to discourage me, since they are folding much more often than 3-betting.

I think with an aggro getting defensive and check/calling is pretty routine.

Net Warrior · #19 07-31-2005, 11:42 PM

I'm glad to read your reply. I'd never do anything but check-call in this spot. Reading and posting in this forum helps my game but many suggestions seem too aggressive and/or too fancy. Most times ABC poker gets the money. Anyway, I just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

Paluka · #20 08-01-2005, 12:09 AM

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FWIW, I raised a terrible UTG limper today 3 off the button with ATo today and two very good players behind me and would do so every time.

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I would raise a terrible limper with ATo even in situations where I would not open-raise ATo. There is a lot more to be gained with the terrible limper and his money in there.