Theory post: Stop and go. Pot control OOP

[lapoker17]

Funny you should mention that situation Yeti. It's important to do this against average and bad players. A good player will call you there with just overs because what you're doing is so transparent - I used to do it a lot, but have learned to mix it up. Sometimes check/calling a flop like that will shut your guy down much better and earn you an extra bet.

[gomberg]

Hopefully I'll write a long post about this later -

but I like to stop and go on the turn in a lot of the situations you've described Yeti for the same reasons and especially if you're against a decent opponent.

I also do this on the flop as well - but mix up which streets with which situations (hopefully) effectively.

[Yeti]

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A good player will call you there with just overs because what you're doing is so transparent

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I know. Once I identify such a player I'll fire another barrel on the turn. I'm working on firing twice more but currently it's pretty unusual and signifies a big hand. The better players who call to take it away from me usually realise this and back off.

That's the theory at least [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[fsuplayer]

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Funny you should mention that situation Yeti. It's important to do this against average and bad players. A good player will call you there with just overs because what you're doing is so transparent

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which is why you lead with your sets and draws as well.

[lapoker17]

Sometimes and sometimes and against certain guys and blah, blah, blah...

you're right FSU, sometimes.

[fsuplayer]

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Sometimes and sometimes and against certain guys and blah, blah, blah...

you're right FSU, sometimes.

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isnt that answer always right, sometimes? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[AZK]

Will you two get a room already?

Just kidding....

[Yeti]

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you're right FSU, sometimes.

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Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes and sometimes and against certain guys and blah, blah, blah...

you're right FSU, sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

isnt that answer always right, sometimes? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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it depends

[gomberg]

Well, to answer the OP, there are 3 ways to use the stop and go. Preflop -> flop, flop -> turn, and turn->river. Here are some possible times that I use the stop and go... obviously this is not an ALWAYS type of play and is opponent dependent. It is also a useful betting strategy to have in the good ol' arsenal.

I wrote a post a while back about the preflop -> flop case, and here it is:
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Well, right off the top of my head, 2 situations come to mind.

with my style of play, I'm usually looking to double up first then get value out of lessor hands 2nd - lets just say I'm usually optimistic when I flop a monster when someone else raised. Given that mindset, I try to think how to get the most money in if he has a good, but not monster hand (or if he is bad and won't fold TPTK, or trips, etc when it's very likely he's beat.

So the most common preflop to flop stop-n-go is when you flop 2pair or a set into a raiser. Depending on stack size and opponent (so sometimes I'll checkraise here), I usually lead into the raiser close to the pot, and hope for a raise. If I have two pair, I'll usually push in over a reraise. If I have a set, I'll probably just call (although if the board is coordinated, I'll push because then the overpair can put me on a draw). with the 2-pair, your hand is going to lose around 30%, so you don't mind getting the money in there. with the set, you'll lose less often (<20%) by the river, so you can call the raise then lead out again or check-raise depending on opponent.

Another example is when you call a raise out of the blinds or early w/ A7s or 77 and the flop is AA7. In this spot, I'll usually bet at least the pot, figuring I won't get money unless the guy has an ace, and if he does, I want a lot of it right now as he is drawing live.

To go along with this, you have to balance your game by betting out on a JJ2 board or xxy non-coordinated board w/ nothing into the raiser sometimes, and also with a draw. Also, with the draw, you can push if you have folding equity to the rereraise on the flop (I love this play, by the way). You'd be surprised how many opponents will fold TPTK to that bet if you have a tight image at the time.

I'm sure I'm missing a ton of spots - but that's what I thought of right away.

Jeff

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The flop -> turn case is most useful when you want to take away the odds of a likely live draw AND take away the push semi-bluff on the flop play. For example, in Pot limit and no limit poker, Reuben plays a hand where he raises AK preflop and flops a Kxy w/ a 2 flush board. He bets out, gets raised, and just calls awaiting a blank turn. Upon the blnak turn, he pushed in the rest of his chips killing the pot odds of the likely draw.

Another time to do it is when you have a draw against a semi-weak player who you know won't raise you again w/out a monster. Here, you can price yourself in with a smallish stop and go bet of about 1/2 pot or a little less hoping for the call (or more hoping for a fold). This way if a scare card comes or your draw hits, you can bet again on the river and you have some deceptive value.

In general, stop and goes confuse players in position and make it more likely to cause your opponent to make a mistake, which is always good for you.

The case from turn -> river is usually a blocking bet. if you mix up your play properly, this can be a value bet, bluff, or 2-way bet as well. If a scare card hits that completes your hand, then this is an obvious time to value stop-n-go either a small bet or a huge bet depending on the psychology of the situation between you and your opponent. Same concept applies with a bluff if a scare card comes. Also a blocking bet could apply as well if the bet is smallish and the opponent won't raise you w/out a hand that beats yours. As stated earlier in the thread, this is very dangerous against capable bluff-raising opponents, and the same line should be taken once in a while with a powerhouse looking for the raise (the infamous weak-lead stop-n-go deceptive bet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

That's all I have for now...