6-12 limit hand

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is more, “Why is betting the flop the best way to get the most money in?” given that it could both slow down SB from betting on the expensive streets, and might results in a reraise which thins the field?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you meant raise the flop, not bet.

We are raising the turn because we have the players trapped now, there may be not bet later. Even if there is a bet our hand value WSILL greatly change on the turn. As a bonus, we raise now, we might even get a free turn on a high card or board pair.

As a rule of thumb in poker when you have the players trapped, you raise for value right there and don't wait for the turn. In this case where our hand is not a made hand- but a drawing hand, raising the flop is even more crucial.

[lighterjobs]

i think you played well to get the maximum value out of the hand. the only thing i would have worried about was A3, though i still don't understand how the second low can scoop that pot with that action.

[J_V]

I don't come to this forum often, but I can't believe how off people are on their assesments of how hands should be played.

The river raise - while correct is where your hand is most leery. Not raising the turn is like missing a hanging curve in whiffle ball.

[kyleb]

I think I raise the turn here 65-70% of the time, but otherwise this hand looks great. Don't get down on yourself, man.

[Diplomat]

Phat ,

you really need to raise this flop. With so many players trapped and given your pot equity, you can raise for both value and a free card. Moreover, it is likely that this is a very difficult flop for the small blind to re-raise. I wouldn't worry about losing anyone.

Given that the players in the middle have just called and it is unlikely that the SB has a full house, you can easily raise this turn. You need to get value from the players looking for a low, who will fold on the river if they miss.

Good river raise. Many players will shy away from a raise here figuring they are making a crying call, but I cannot see you losing the high.

-Diplomat

[DyessMan89]

Pre-flop- A rather loose call, but its fine. Id make the call here as well.

Flop- Raise this. You have a lot of equity, and a raise will not thin the field. (which of cource you dont want) I think you played this too soft.

Turn- Im calling here as well. My hand "might" me good right now, but then again it might not. However, if I spike my 3, I have a solid chance of scooping this pot. A raise is a possibility, but for some reason I feel more comfortable smooth calling here.

River- 3 didnt come, but I made the 2nd nut low draw. Meh, decent. However, I think you made an AWFUL play here by raising. Never raise in the middle with secondary strength. I make the call here, and figure to take down 1/2 the pot a decent amount of the time.

[Diplomat]

DyessMan,

without offense, you sound too weak-tight on this hand. Pre-flop is an automatic call in that spot. The turn is a good spot to raise, and your comments are inconsistent in that regard. How can he go from "might" to "solid chance" of winning the high when he hits the three?

As for the river raise, what range of hands, in general, will a non-descript player in that spot (consider the pre-flop raise from the small blind)? Given that he raised from the small blind, it is highly unlikely that he has made a full house, unless he has some odd pair that hit the board (A255 maybe). Moreover, it seems unlikely that he would re-raise the river with the underfull anyway.

Additionally, I think there would have been more action from the players in the middle if one of them could beat a flush/second nut low. The check-call sequence from them seems to say weak made hands such as trip nines, low flushes, and weak lows. I think there is solid value to the river raise.

That said, I will not find myself in that spot too often, because I'll raise the turn in similar situations almost every time.

-Diplomat

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
Phat ,

you really need to raise this flop. With so many players trapped and given your pot equity, you can raise for both value and a free card. Moreover, it is likely that this is a very difficult flop for the small blind to re-raise. I wouldn't worry about losing anyone.

Given that the players in the middle have just called and it is unlikely that the SB has a full house, you can easily raise this turn. You need to get value from the players looking for a low, who will fold on the river if they miss.

Good river raise. Many players will shy away from a raise here figuring they are making a crying call, but I cannot see you losing the high.

-Diplomat

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the turn and river raise, but is the flop raise that clear cut? I'm willing to be persuaded its better to raise, but it seems fairly close depending on opponents.

In this hand, you'd likely have gained +$25 from the flop bet, but then likely lost $20 from a lack of bet from sB on the turn, and -$10 on the river as other guy folded. Or maybe more if SB folded. Or perhaps SB reraises with AA here (not unrealistic since he apparently bet the whole way with it) and perhaps you only win +$10 on the flop.

--Greg

[Buzz]

Hi Mack -

[ QUOTE ]
I like the way I played this hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.

A raise on the turn seems reasonable too, but then you probably don't get to raise on the river. (SB would probably check to you on the river if you raised on the turn).

Not raising the turn worked fine this time, because SB led again on the river - but the danger of not raising on the turn is that SB might check on the river - and if that happens, you won't collect the extra bet.

Thus you're more assured of getting in the extra bet if you raise on the turn (although this time it worked out the same).

When the action gets to you on the second betting round, it can hardly be clear to you that your second nut low draw will turn out to win for low - and in that case you're mostly playing for half the pot with a flush draw. With all those callers, you have to think you're looking at some nut low draws. You don't have favorable odds to raise if you're playing for half the pot.

The advantage of raising the flop, as I see it, is you'd set up an opponent with the same second nut low draw as you for intimidation on the third betting round - but the ploy wouldn't get rid of any nut low draws - and with all those callers, it certainly looks like one of them has a better draw for low than you.

All things considered, I wouldn't raise on the second betting round. (However, raising there would not be horrid, in my humble opinion).

Bottom line: I like the way you played the hand. (Maybe a bit better to raise on the flop rather than waiting for the river to make your move).

Buzz

[Phat Mack]

I wouldn't call this a loose game. It was more of a weak-tight game with players who hadn't really thought deeply about the meaning of tight. They were sitting hands until they had a chance to lock up a low.

O8 games seem to attract players that I consider polar opposites, action players and those who believe they can reduce variance by playing this game. There were no action players at this table. In fact, this game seemed to be set up to discourage action players. The only BTF raises I had seen shown down were by AAxx hands, and the only river raises were by nut hands. Most of my O8 BTF raising is situational, rather than being determined by hand strength, and some of the other players seemd to be made a bit restive by my play.

When SB raised BTF, I put him on AA. When he fired at the flop and at the turn, he seemed stuck on go. I never considered raising the flop. I had a big draw, but only a pair of 9's at the time. I didn't want anyone to drop, and I feared a flop raise would have been followed by a re-raise by SB that would have chased away my customers. I tend to think of "flop raising in order to get a free turn card" as sort of a cliche--it may have worked in this game, but I'm doubtful--at any rate, I didn't want a free turn card.

I liked the turn. I liked my nut diamonds, and I liked my 9 stopper-with-redraw. There was a lot of flop betting and raising with middle and bottom set, so I didn't think there was a full house. I didn't raise the turn because I felt the low draws would have put me on high and stayed in. Plus it would have kept SB from betting the river, and I felt there was a good chance he would do so. I reasoned that if low made on the river, I might drop another A4 with a raise at that time. If there was an A3 out there, so be it; I felt I could account for three A's, and wasn't in that bad shape for low.

On the river, I felt Caller might have A4 because of his behavior. My river raise was partly to get him out, but mainly because I thought there was a good chance that I had the best high. I didn't like his final call.

Neither opponent showed down.