Let's Try Something New

[Allinlife]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a poorly played hand.

Don't confuse luck with skill.

Unless you hate money.

[/ QUOTE ]
if you are gonna criticize his line, please do so with rational and logical reasonings that support your arguement.

[Cased Heel]

ok

[kagame]

ill pick it up

allows villain to dump hands Hero has beat, especially a weaker kicker QK for example

villain never folds a hand that Hero is losing to

sounds like a negative expectation situation

[Allinlife]

I think Vanveen's line gives you the option to bluff with missed draws later making you more unreadable...

If you noticed, his push basically seems like a deperate bluff from missed draw given both straigth and flush draw didn't get there on the river.

It's true that he won't fold any hands that has his AA beat, but I think villan's will call with wider range of hands that are worse than his.

[savman]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a poorly played hand.

Don't confuse luck with skill.

Unless you hate money.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree. if there is an appreciable history between the players, such that villain knows that hero knows his hand, then this is an awesome play. I have been thinkning about this post and while reading an archived hand i ran across a situation which crystlized my thoughts on this hand. First, hero opens utg. Villain knows hero is solid, thus his calling standards here are high (sc's and low pp are not calling raises here oop, not profitable against two known mtters) and villain knows hero knows this. When villain leads pot oop, this typically means he hit the flop, hero calls, which could mean a lot of things, but villain suspects its not a monster b/c if it were hero would need/want to protect/build pot here. hero checks behind turn, not an indicator of strength, and villain pots on river. standard tptk (good but vunerable hand) line, villain knows hero knows this, SO when hero raises all in villain is thinking he knows i have ak (or whatever), and he knows i know i cant call an all in with this hand. And here i think the stack size is a big deal. if pot goes flop ~9bb, pot call= 27bb, river pot =54bb villain would be getting less than 2 to 1 one on an all in (bottom range of stack size), and still has at least 75bb behind.

essentially, villain knows that hero knows he has a strong hand, but not a hand that wants to call an all in. Particularly when villain knows that hero knows he cant possibly call given the odds on the river and amount of bb left.....all of this can lead villain to call thinking he has just snapped off a huge bluff. NOW...heros thinking simply goes to the next level. Hero knows that villain knows that hero knows his hand, thus making villain more inclined to call; which in turn, makes heros push nh sir.

as an aside, villain has to beleive hero is capable of such a play [missed flush helps here](usually best accomplished by hero getting caught bluffing by villain on another table) ; but if we accept both players are making lots of monies in the game, they are playing more than their cards and they both know it.

[barongreenback]

What if a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or Q or J come. Do you think you'll still get all his money in? Will you be happy if it does? If he thinks you are prepared to bluff raise river and is prepared to get stacked finding out do you not think he'll look up a flop raise?

James

[savman]

[ QUOTE ]
What if a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or Q or J come. Do you think you'll still get all his money in? Will you be happy if it does? If he thinks you are prepared to bluff raise river and is prepared to get stacked finding out do you not think he'll look up a flop raise?
James

[/ QUOTE ]

first, no scare cards came....second, i would not advocate you take this as a standard aa line. it should only be used in perfect conditions, with a stellar read, and sparingly. the fact that he called our river bet is not in anyway justification for villain looking hero up on a flop raise. villain pots and we raise him. here we are defining our hand; unlike the OP line, where we have not defined our hand at all. if villain did call our flop raise, i would venutre to say he is all but done with the hand, not likely we are stacking him.