how is position so important?

[Wintermute]

excluding the blinds, my VPIP (min 23 , max 34), PFR(2,17), and win % (34,52) all go up with better position.

so, yes, starting hand requirements differ strongly w/ position, particularly with regard to raising

[templar999]

[ QUOTE ]
Position will always be more important in games where you can bet larger amounts of people's stacks

[/ QUOTE ]

as well as large amounts relative to the pot size. dont mean to be insulting in any way, but if you're not doing better in late position relative to the early positions over a large number of hands not just in a PL game but in any game, you're simply not maximizing or using your position.

respectfully,
temp

[Mendacious]

You may be right about not maximizing postion, but my BB/100 for PL08 at 22,000 hands is over 20. So I'm hesitant to play much differently.

I am doing very slightly better from later position, with the exception of the BB which if you subtract the blind money out, is my best position by far.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
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If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are risking the wrath of Ribbo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually laughed out loud at this. well done.

[templar999]

mendacious,

again, wasn't commenting on your play at all, just an observation from the facts you posted.

geez, 20BB/100?? wow that's mighty impressive. is PLO8 really that much more profitable? i've assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that PLO8 is for those who have play O8 well and have high aggression levels. usually not opponents i'd like to face at any game. i guess it's a moot point since they never have it at a b&m.

respectfully,
temp

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious Gergely and Wintermute, do you track winnings by position in Limit08 and PLO8, and if so, what do your stats tell you about how important position is?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think position is most important in PL Omaha High only, then NL, then PLO8, then limit games. It's a big advantage. I don't have enough hands at PLO8 for meaningful winrate numbers by position, but my stats are close to Wintermute's

[ QUOTE ]

VPIP (min 23 , max 34), PFR(2,17), and win % (34,52)

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine are VPIP (min, 25, max 33), PFR (3,14), win rates more jagged but higher with position. My numbers are full ring.

I'm at 17BB/100 at the $200 game so I'm happy with my results.

In Limit O8 where I have more hands, my number are a very smooth progression for VPIP, cold call, PFR, Win %, and $ won.

--Greg

[Mendacious]

Interesting-- I was going to posit that Wintermute was overvalueing position because he usually plays shorthanded rather than full ring, but I may have to just accept that I need to loosen up my late hand requirements and play more aggressively from the end.

Someone on UB told me her notes on me were included that I undervalue position (along with overplaying top trips). She may have been right on both counts, hard as that is to accept.

[Mendacious]

Not a problem Templar999, I was just stubbornly finding it hard to believe that I am wrong on this because my results have been so positive. (Classic mistake). But honestly, up to $100 and sometimes $200 tables, good PL08 players just kill the less experienced ones. (And I think it has a lot more to do with evaluating heads up than anything else).

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
You may be right about not maximizing postion, but my BB/100 for PL08 at 22,000 hands is over 20.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious, what levels & site do you achieve this win rate? Over 20 is awesome.

[Ribbo]

That's just filthy.
[ QUOTE ]
Position is important because you can either build a bigger pot, or drive people out/narrow the field.

[/ QUOTE ]
Almost true. The true power of position is how other people percieve your bet at the table. If you have the button, it's checked around to you, and you hold A2 suited with a 468 suited on the board, you can bet the pot. Your bet is more likely to be seen as a bluff. If you make the same bet from under the gun, you are going to get more respect. So your value bets when you have position are more profitable. The information you gain from others is also key here. If you hold the nuts it's more likely someone will bet for you if you're on the button, than if you're in early position. Omaha is a game where usually you can't risk giving a free card, and if you have the nuts with position it's easier to make large bets and raises.
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If you have a hand like A/A/K/10 double-suited in Omaha hi/lo, you really want to narrow the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you don't want to narrow the field, it's a profitable hand which gains from having more players in the pot, however you do want to raise for value.
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If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, not true. This depends entirely on what other hands you raise from early position. I will raise a large variety of hands including A35K from early to 3x if im first in the pot. I would raise AA23 to the same 3x bet if first in, as often people recognising this raise will call knowing it doesn't mean A2 automatically. Plus anyone who folds A2xx to a 3x raise preflop from any position is stupidly tight and deserves to lose.

[ QUOTE ]

If you're last to act with A/A/2/3 THEN you want to raise and build a bigger pot.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's obvious, but this also applies to any position. If however you're in a game where they wont call your raises then you either need to raise more and steal pots, or leave the game and find a better one to play in.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, some hands may be playable from if the pot is unraised and you're in late position (something like 9/10/J/Q) but if you're first to act it's best to dump this hand, since it will be hard for you to call any raises with this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
9TJQ needs about 4 or 5 people in the pot to be worth a bet, however if it was suited, I would call a preflop raise with it in a pot limit O/8 game.
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Good luck, hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]
It will help him play worse, yes. The last thing he needs to become is another stiff tight predictable rock garden.

Wrath Over.