WTSD%

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your PFR%? I'm betting it's near or below 8%.

[/ QUOTE ]
11.4%. Why?

[Lestat]

That's interesting. I find a direct correlation in my own stats between my PFR% and WTSD%. The higher my PFR, the higher my WTSD. Obviously, this isn't the case with you. I'm not sure what this means really, except that our play must be very different. FWIW- The higher my WTSD, the better my overall results.

The most amazing stat (to me), that I see is that some people are able to crush the games with a W$SD% of just slightly over 50%. But invariably these people have a +40% WTSD. They also always have a very high PFR%. Yours seems high at 11.4%. It's not like I'm passive pre-flop, but I can't imagine ever getting to +11%. I suspect you guys must be steal quite a bit more than I do.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
That's interesting. I find a direct correlation in my own stats between my PFR% and WTSD%. The higher my PFR, the higher my WTSD. Obviously, this isn't the case with you. I'm not sure what this means really, except that our play must be very different.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting to me, and it makes some sense. I wouldn't think it would be a linear relationship though but it does make a little sense.

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW- The higher my WTSD, the better my overall results.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is another one of the reasons I am looking to improve on my WTSD%. I guess what I should post (and I can't atm since I'm at work) is my fold % for each of the streets.

[ QUOTE ]
The most amazing stat (to me), that I see is that some people are able to crush the games with a W$SD% of just slightly over 50%. But invariably these people have a +40% WTSD. They also always have a very high PFR%. Yours seems high at 11.4%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is another thing that concerns me as the players you are talking about invariably do better than I do and I wonder if this is the reason why (my WTSD stat). I just don't know what type of hands I am playing that I am folding that I should be taking to the river...

[bicyclekick]

I can't believe nobody has mentioned it...went to showdown is largely influenced by postflop aggression. The more aggressive you are, the less you'll go to showdown because you'll cause people to fold more as well as fold more yourself because other peoples aggression will allow you to hand read more.

Also, shorthanded play makes your went to sd #'s go up.

YOu're right though, my went to sd # is like 39%.

[Lestat]

<font color="red">I wouldn't think it would be a linear relationship though but it does make a little sense. </font>

Actually I do see a linear relatioship. When you raise pre-flop, you are more likely to be in control of the pot and therefore more likely to get to a showdown. If you raise with JTs for example, and get 1 caller, it will almost always be worth betting the flop. On the turn, you will often still have overcards or some type of draw that might make it worth betting again. Had you limped, you may never have been able to get further than the flop. So it does make sense to me why a higher pfr% leads to higher wtsd. Although I am not advocating raising 100% of the time with JTs.

A word of caution: You need to be very careful when arriving at conclusions and/or trying to artificially generate certain stats because you think a specific stat should ideally be higher or lower. The reason is, that these stats are invariably tied to other underlying principles of play. Be careful with your adjustments.

[DpR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for the 15 i think 35% w/a 19vpip is where you want to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you say that and how do you achieve it (if those are your numbers)? If my WTSD is too low, and hence exploitable, then I want to know why and am looking for possible things to look at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I say that becasue I used to play with numbers similar to what you have, but now I get get numbers like thos I mentioned. For the 30/60 my wtsd is 40%. For both games I think won money at sd should be just over 50%. For me the difference in playing one way vs the other was the difference in play at 1BB/100 to 3BB/100.

The problem is it is very difficult to tell you what you are doing wrong. My guess would be you are 1) not leading enough/being aggressive post flop. Basicaly get it heads up and then see a showdown - you'll win more than u think. 2). Against obvservant opponents the fact that you are going to s.d. with less powerful hands will get you more calls when you have a good hand (thus further increasing your WTS sinc you opponenets are no longer folding against you. 3) Utilize free show down plays on turn more. 4) Don't do this stuff vs. me, there are already enough tough players.

Hope this is useful, I know it can be frusterating seeing other stats and not being ablt to figure out what you are doing that is different - I have been there.

[ike]

I've been doing very well in the Party 30 with:
VPIP 19.55
PFR 13.85
WtSD 40.25
W$SD 50.76

Thats filtered for hands with 8 or more players at the table.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
This is actually something I have been thinking about a lot lately. It's exactly where I thought I might be leaking as I am betting / folding on the turn a fair bit... it will take a while to change it in the right spots I think though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its a very difficult balance to find too. You certainly don't want to be giving up a ton of value bets on the turn/river, but some carefully timed checks will not only get your WTSD% up, it will take opportunities away from your opponents to force you into making potentially pot sized mistakes.

I see the bet/fold line recommended on here all the time, and I think that in most cases its absolutely insane. I'll use it against a guy with something like a .7 FL-see aggression number, because i'll know that player isn't raising unless he got there. Using that line against a tricky AGGro player, especially one that pays attention to you, is just asking to be tricked into throwing pots away.

I dont try to beat aggression with aggression, not unless my hand is huge.

lf

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't believe nobody has mentioned it...went to showdown is largely influenced by postflop aggression. The more aggressive you are, the less you'll go to showdown because you'll cause people to fold more as well as fold more yourself because other peoples aggression will allow you to hand read more.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a very important concept to this whole idea, and is what I was referencing in my earlier post. BK what are your flop/turn/river agg #'s? I wonder how they compare to Mark's?

lf

[Lestat]

Can I ask now many total hands this is for?

It's amazing to me how one can do so well with such an anemic w$sd %. But I'm not knocking it. It's obvious that this number is not telling on it's own. I have also been doing well in the 30-60 game (but I am no doubt running extremely well), through 12k hands with:

vpip - 18%
pfr - 10%
wtsd - 36%
w$sd - 57%

What this tells me (after seeing your numbers), is that I can soon expect to take a serious drop when I stop running so well. What are your flop, turn, and river agression numbers? Or if you don't have those, then your total post-flop aggression factor? I really need to determine where the leaks are in my game. Why is it that you guys can win so few showdowns yet still run rings around me in bb/100.