something rather disturbing...

[MS Sunshine]

"One last thought - Once the sea of fish realize the kind of help we have been using what's the response going to be?"

Same as always, "I thought you had AK".

MS Sunshine

[pokerplayer28]

youre right about everything as for the question where do we draw the line? we dont the sites do

whats the diffence between a bot we programed from PT and PV? nothing except the sites say no bots and have said nothing about PT and PV yet

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
"One last thought - Once the sea of fish realize the kind of help we have been using what's the response going to be?"

Same as always, "I thought you had AK".

MS Sunshine

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[Mike Haven]

[ QUOTE ]
whats the diffence between a bot we programed from PT and PV? nothing except the sites say no bots and have said nothing about PT and PV yet

[/ QUOTE ]

"With reference to your e-mail please note that we have our teams of game experts in consultation with the Technical Team constantly evaluating such software programs/applications, in order to determine the suitability of such third party programs and their compatibility with our Poker Client software and Terms and Conditions.

The outcome of this exercise has revealed that at present, we have no immediate plans to block this software, but the situation is under constant review.

I can only apologize for any miscommunication in this regard, and assure you that out intention has always been to protect the interest of our players without compromising on the security and integrity of our card room.

In connection to the same, please be aware that we have adequate security systems in place to detect and prevent the use of BOT programs in conjunction with our poker software."

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
"One last thought - Once the sea of fish realize the kind of help we have been using what's the response going to be?"

Same as always, "I thought you had AK".

MS Sunshine

[/ QUOTE ]

haahhaah I love it!

[axioma]

thanks for a sensible answer raydain.

thinking about it some more i realise that its the large , comercial scale of PE that is getting to me mostly. poker IS a zero sum game (of course not including rake), to the person who said otherwise.

so what happens is you pay the PE people X amount because you determin that it is worth >X amount in value to yourself. However this amount you make is comming from somewhere, namely out of the pokets of players who do not use PE. Its that simple - hense the PE people are EXPLOITING you and me, the people who do not use thier app, for thier own comercial gain. Very, very shady IMO.

im really surprised that more people have not spoke up against it. that in itself is also pretty worrying, because with complaicanty like that the border of what is acceptable is slowly eroded away.

[Theodore Donald Kiravatsos]

So...

Going to Law School, eh? Super!! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] This world couldn't possibly have enough lawyers!

Planning to be a lawyer for Big Tobacco? You seem to have twisted the morality on this issue enough to demonstrate you could be a real asset for them.

[Spook]

I don't think it will help, but I emailed Party about this and storing observed hands on the hard drive.

[O Doyle Rules]

Hey axioma,

I find it quite ironic that players that are using Playverview and Gametime are so against Poker Edge.

In my estimation it performs the same function as those programs with more convenience, but at a higher cost.

Could part of your distaste of Poker Edge come from the fact that you are losing some of the edge over the players that did not datamine on their own and use PV or GT?

Not trying to be a smart axx, I think it is a legitemate question. It's like the line I crossed is fine, but go just one milimeter further and it's all wrong.

[keithc]

axioma,

I happen to agree with you. I use PT/PV as well, yet PokerEdge seems to cross some ethical line for me. It may seem hypocritical, given my reliance on these other software tools, but nevertheless that's how I feel.

Ethics aside, there are some practical reasons that fuel my apprehension. I'm not that concerned about having PE users track me. Rather, its the "collateral damage" it may inflict on the other software tools. Whether or not PE is ethical or not is certainly open to debate, but surely most people would agree it is more ...egregious than these other programs. Should PE proliferate, I fear PartyPoker and other sites might take a harder line toward all such programs. Even without PE, it looks as if PartyPoker is considering banning PT/PV/Gametime altogether (see threads on this forum, and their updated T&S). PE might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

All that said, I think the emergence of PE was inevitable, given the availability of stats to begin with. I don't know if it would be possible or desirable to prohibit its use.

Finally, I think this is a legitimate ethical debate, and I think those denying that it is are being disingenuous. Someone had previously written:

> Not trying to be a smart axx, I think it is a
> legitemate question. It's like the line I crossed
> is fine, but go just one milimeter further and it's all
> wrong.

I think that aptly describes how axioma and I feel. Though it may seem like an arbitrarily drawn line, that scant millimeter is enough for me to be uncomfortable. I don't think its as simple as "if you use PT you must be OK with PE". Defining laws & ethics often comes down to deciding where that millimeter lies. To give a rather poor analogy, if I have sex with an 18 year old, that is fine (actually, great!). However, if I have sex with a 17 year old the day before her 18th birthday, that is statutory rape (in most states). I am not in favor of repealing statutory rape laws.

My name is Keith, and this is my first 2+2 forum post.

Kind regards,

~kc