Calm down newbies...

[Aces McGee]

QTip

I appreciate what this post is trying to accomplish, but I do wish that your words have been chosen a great deal more carefully.

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I’m not an elitist, and I try my best to be a nice guy, but please, if you’re new here and fairly new to the game, try not to post so much advice in a hand.

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This is in almost direct contradiction to what new posters have been advised to do in the 2+ years I've been here. I'm sure that Joe Tall, among others, will tell you that he learned the most as a beginner by posting bad advice and having the more experienced posters correct him.

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if you’re inclined to comment on how you would play a hand, say something like “In this situation I’ve been doing…..because (give your reasoning)”. There’s a different tone to the answer and you expose your reasoning so that it can either be confirmed or corrected.

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This is more like it. But I do think that all posters should recognize that -- unless a piece of advice or a response is specifically referenced to some authority like HPFAP, SSHE, or past threads where a consensus is reached -- said piece of advice is merely the poster's opinion on what the best play is. This is true whether someone like Clarkmeister posts the advice or I do. Now, I think everyone on this forum will give more credit to a Clarkmeister post than an Aces McGee post, and that's as it should be, because he is a better poker player than I am with a great deal more experience. But just because a poster doesn't qualify his or her response with "I'm new, but..." or "this is how I play these situations" or "I think that" should not be a signal that the advice given is the absolute, authoritative, final word on the subject.

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You can say “raise”, and that’s the best answer, but you could be doing it for the wrong reason and no one learns anything.



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This is the most important advice in the thread, in my opinion. Only, as some (including yourself) have mentioned, it's applicable to posters new and old.

The strategy forums aren't "advice" forums in the strictest sense of the word; no one is reaching a difficult decision in a hand, posting the hand, waiting for feedback, and then proceeding with the hand. By the time the hand is posted, the decision has been made. We're not "advising" anyone when we respond to hand posts. We're discussing poker and poker strategy. And posts that simply recommend a course of action without giving any reason why lend little to the discussion.

-McGee

[MEbenhoe]

Nice post.

Honestly, the reasons you mention are basically what keeps me from being more active in the SS forum. Generally I only post a hand now if I think it had some interesting aspect to it, and even still half the replies are from people who to be quite plain and simple are spewing absolutely terrible advice.

I don't expect everyone in the SS forum to have complete mastery of all parts of the game yet, but some of these mistakes are things that make me think you should still be back in the micro forum.

However, I will state as a disclaimer, that judging someone by their post count or when they registered is terrible. There are plenty of people with tons of posts that have no clue what they're talking about, and plenty who post on rare occassion, but when they do its very well thought out.

Example: This is a hand I posted a couple weeks ago, because I thought it had some interesting aspects to it, especially in regards to taking your opponent into consideration, but the commentary on it, with the exception of the last two replies is just plain awful: HAND

[Bill Lumberg]

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Spend your time constructively questioning advice given and trying to glean as much as possible from the better posters.

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Coming from a noob, I've been doing this since the first time I posted advice like I knew what I was talking about. A veteran proceeded to totally destroy my analysis, and I've been posting in question form most of the time since. Feels a lot better on my pride and it helps the vets answer more thoroughly. Good advice.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate what this post is trying to accomplish, but I do wish that your words have been chosen a great deal more carefully.


Quote:
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I’m not an elitist, and I try my best to be a nice guy, but please, if you’re new here and fairly new to the game, try not to post so much advice in a hand.


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This is in almost direct contradiction to what new posters have been advised to do in the 2+ years I've been here. I'm sure that Joe Tall, among others, will tell you that he learned the most as a beginner by posting bad advice and having the more experienced posters correct him.

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Perhaps I miscomunicated here McGee, and should have thought more about the words chosen as I just burned out the text in the OP. I'm not saying don't respond or discuss. I've learned the most as well by saying something incorrectly and having it corrected.

I'm having a hard time saying what I want to say here. I'm really after more of the attitude behind a response and the motive for responding...

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But just because a poster doesn't qualify his or her response with "I'm new, but..." or "this is how I play these situations" or "I think that" should not be a signal that the advice given is the absolute, authoritative, final word on the subject.

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Perhaps some have a better handle on that than I do, because when I read some of the responses given with horrible advice, it would seem put in such a way that would indicate the poster thinking it is the final word.

I guess my OP was just trying to give a wake up call to newbies in the game. You're not what you think you are. It can just be a little frustrating to converse with someone that hasn't grasped enough of the game to realize that fact.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Spend your time constructively questioning advice given and trying to glean as much as possible from the better posters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Coming from a noob, I've been doing this since the first time I posted advice like I knew what I was talking about. A veteran proceeded to totally destroy my analysis, and I've been posting in question form most of the time since. Feels a lot better on my pride and it helps the vets answer more thoroughly. Good advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've captured what I'm talking about Bill.

[TripleH68]

Q Tip,

I have respect for your dedication to the forum. This goes for many other posters. The best posts obviously come from players who have read SSH, TOP etc and have some experience at the tables. If you are a newbie reading this please do your homework before posing 'advice'.

That said, here is my two cents about the last couple weeks...

Multiple posts in the same thread annoy me. I suggest posters read an original post, really think about it and post if you feel you have something to add. Then give it some time and let a reasonable number of 2+2ers respond. This goes for OP also.

This post and respond and post and respond near-hijacking is annoying. We are here to learn, not prove something. The goal is becoming a better poker player.

If I am off base, please tell me so. Thanks.

[toss]

I think some posters like to post their thoughts on the hand/question without reading any of the other posts. I've done this sometimes in SS and almost all the time in Micro.

[SteveL91]

I think you're trying to dissuade people from speaking authoritatively when it hasn't been proven they have a firm grasp of the game. That's why on the off-chance I post advice, I'll post my thoughts and reasoning because I know there are plenty of people more qualified to answer, but my ideas might spur some debate, or at least give the OP something to think about.

[jjacky]

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Posting to learn, give/receive constructive criticism, and share thoughts/ideas is good.

Posting to declare your own advice without any reasoning and not changing your own ideas is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

And with this comes the attitude that when someone disagrees you pull on them to explain more instead of hammering in your original statement.

And, yes, we're all guilty of these things from time to time.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 cents from a newbie of the forum:

as long as the newer player / poster don't become to large a majority, i don't consider flawed advice to be too much of a problem imo. if everybody reveals his reasoning and some bad analysis gets corrected the main goal is accomplished: everybody thought about the game and talked about it with others.
the other issue bothers me more: that there are so many postst like "raise the flop", "fold the turn" or the worst of all "standard". this destroys the discussion very often, or at least doesn't help to get it started. this was pointed out several times, but i think it can't be often enough. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[toss]

I've just read some hands here and I think one problem is that "newbies" are heading straight to SS without making a stop at the Micros or even the Begginers forums. I've spent like 6 months in micro and it did me a lotta good.

Edit: Basic stuff like PF (usually basic) and playing straightforward draws shouldn't be a prblem here, but I see a lot of stuff like "Fold Preflop, what are you playing that garbage for?", when they haven't even looked at what odds they are getting or why that hand should be played or not.