The Way to Play AK? - Page 2

ZManODS · #11 01-31-2003, 01:05 PM

Oh, yea i can definately see that. Granted he was wrong continuing that far, he didnt make that bad a move on the river.

Homer · #12 01-31-2003, 01:15 PM

Some of the things you hear at the table are funny. We should make a list of the biggest poker misconceptions sometime (stuff like "NEVER draw to an inside straight"). Who knows, maybe someone has done something like this already.

-- Homer

DeliciousDi · #13 01-31-2003, 01:49 PM

AK is definitely not more profitable than AA or KK
Compare AA with AK (paraphrased from page 67, WGTTHP):
Let's say that you win 100 total bets with each hand and along the way you have also lost some. With AA you lose 40 bets (1/3 of 140 bets) for a net win of 60 bets. With AK you win the same 100 hypothetical bets but you lose fewer bets because you throw AK away when you don't make anything on the flop, thus a net win of more than 60 bets and more profitable.
This may apply only to the 3/6 online (where I play), where you will need a hand at showdown because opponents will take you to showdown with any pair even if they're playing dead. They're not "on" to anything - they just don't know any better and, in the long run, that's good.
AK unimproved on the flop should be an easy play - after all you are about a 3-1 dog to improve on the turn or river, so gamble (chase) once in awhile only to mix up your play in case anyone is noticing, otherwise muck.
I think the question on the thread was how to play AK unimproved on the flop and I don't see how you can go wrong by mucking every time in that game.

DeliciousDi · #14 01-31-2003, 02:20 PM

IMHO as a beginner, I think it's too bad that a seeming beginner can ask a question on this board and not only be diverted into questions of 'profit' or 'AA' or 'inside straights' but also be subjected to ridicule of beginners in general. Not long ago I didn't know to bet dem Aces or don't bet at all, I didn't know about outs and odds and I'm still learning deceptive play - so does that give anyone the right to portray me as stupid or a "fish"? Were you people born with this knowledge or did you learn some of it the hard way? If you don't want to share your hard-earned knowledge with beginners, then don't. Go on making fun of those trying to learn. Just keep in mind that today's stupid fish could be there to eat your lunch tomorrow.

davidross · #15 01-31-2003, 02:23 PM

John,

I don't think there was anything wrong with your play of this hand. Clearly the river bet was a bluff, not a value bet because I can't imagine the other guy calling you without a pair. I generally would check the river in your situation, but still bet the flop and turn heads up. Gaining the extra bet when ahead, and saving it when behind will make the difference between winning and losing in these games.

Other than not playing Q2, I would have played his hand the same way. With no big cards showing, heads up, any pair will win you enough pots to make it worth while.

I can't believe you are getting advice to fold unimproved. You're going to win a lot of pots heads up and even against 2 opponents unimproved with AK. Position and your opponents will dictate how you play these hands.

I also can't believe anyone posting here believes AK will be more profitable than KK or AA in the long run.

JTG51 · #16 01-31-2003, 02:27 PM

I've heard one particular lady say many times that she never raises AK before the flop. She says she never wins with it, so why bother raising.

And she really doesn't ever raise it. I've folded AK before the flop after she raised from early position.

Homer · #17 01-31-2003, 02:38 PM

It is ironic that you think I am making fun of you in some way, since I posted a thread recently stating that we should be sure to help beginners and not turn them away from the site. I'm not sure what I said to make you think that I think you are a fish, but if I did say something wrong, I apologize. I was simply trying to say that your statement that AK is better than AA is incorrect. Perhaps it was because I suggested that we compile a list of common misconceptions that new players have about hold'em? If so, my intentions were to make that list to help new players, not to mock them.

I am confused by your first response to me. In the first sentence you say that AK is most certainly not more profitable than AA. But in the remaining text, you seem to give proof that AK is more profitable than AA.

-- Best Wishes, Mason.....err Homer

bad beetz · #18 01-31-2003, 02:58 PM

Woa, easy there, monchichi.

I wasn't ridiculing anybody, just tryin to point out that AK being more profitable than AA is WAY WRONG, and I threw in a humorous anectdote from a table just for you. John Shaft got allot of response to his question, there's little substance in some of it, sure (like mine) but I'm sure he knows more about it than he did before.

I'm sure John Shaft's got nerves of steel anyway, and some baddass ho's who'd take care of me in a second if he was even slightly offended. recognize.

bad beetz · #19 01-31-2003, 02:59 PM

I love that, and I've done exactly the same thing. It's nice when you only have to lose zero bets instead of five to find out if they really did have a high pocket pair

DeliciousDi · #20 01-31-2003, 03:19 PM

I'm sorry Homer. I didn't mean to include everybody in my complaint, certainly not you and certainly not some others. Reading this board has improved my game and I'm in debt to those posters, but some do seem given to snobbery and elitism.
That first sentence (AK not profitable) was quoting from your post and going on to state what I see as reasonable numbers showing that AK can be very profitable if played properly (but isn't that true of every hand?): in no way better than AA or KK (never said that), and a good hand to fold unimproved on the flop in a game where you can figure on going to showdown with a small pot. Most of the time the pot odds in that 3/6 game don't thrill.
I actually don't care if AA is more profitable than AK or reverse - I can't recall being given an option to choose between having AA or AK pockets but, if so, I would choose AA every time and play them fast right up to the danger zone.
My idea of mucking AK unimproved on the flop in most situations applies only to that online 3/6 game and I haven't seen any numbers to convince me that is not a good play there. If that is a bad play I would like to stand corrected. Probably half of what I know isn't true.