TPGK, standard? - Page 2

McGahee · #11 06-23-2005, 08:47 AM

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I don't like trying to check raise this hand when you don't know where the bet is going to come from. If it comes from your immediate left, the whole field will call one bet, then another when you raise, which totally defeats the purpose of the check raise.

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Not really - it allows you to get more $ in the pot with the likely best hand. It's a good value raise if the bet's on your left. If the right, it's for protection. Win-Win. If the entire table is passive, then of course you'd rather bet. Lots of people auto-bet the flop though when they're in LP and it's checked to them.

McGahee · #12 06-23-2005, 08:56 AM

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A better play *might* be to just check preflop, and set up a check/raise if you flop top pair

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Anyone who checks top pair on the flop here is not playing good poker.

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I disagree - I played a hand like this the other night.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

River: (19.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

davelin · #13 06-23-2005, 08:59 AM

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A better play *might* be to just check preflop, and set up a check/raise if you flop top pair

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Anyone who checks top pair on the flop here is not playing good poker.

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I disagree - I played a hand like this the other night.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

River: (19.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

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Results? I still think your flop check stinks and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would feel this way.

crownjules · #14 06-23-2005, 08:59 AM

I'd play it the same. When an unknown suddenly raises you on the river, it usually means they have you beat. He could have the flush or maybe hit a two pair. I'd only consider raising there if I had a read on the player that they bluff bet/raise a lot.

imported_The Vibesman · #15 06-23-2005, 09:04 AM

Looks good. I think the raise isn't bad at all against a bunch of Party limpers. Everything else is pretty straightforward.

edit: I agree with those that say there is too much chance of having this flop checked thru. Your hand is vulnerable and the pot is getting big already, just bet.

crownjules · #16 06-23-2005, 09:04 AM

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A better play *might* be to just check preflop, and set up a check/raise if you flop top pair

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Anyone who checks top pair on the flop here is not playing good poker.

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I disagree - I played a hand like this the other night.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

River: (19.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

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Results? I still think your flop check stinks and I'm sure I'm not the only one who would feel this way.

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Yeah. First of all, you were the aggressor PF. What makes you think someone's going to bet for you? You were lucky that someone did. Otherwise, you just let all the draws get a free card on you and lost value on what is probably the best hand.

McGahee · #17 06-23-2005, 09:20 AM

Maybe it's more prevelant in SH games, but like I said people like to auto-bet in LP when checked to them; especially on the flop.
I had been raising big non-wired cards PF frequently at this table OOP, getting mostly crappy flops, and check/calling the flop before check/folding the turn. I believe I did exactly that from the BB w/ AK on the previous orbit. I was confident somebody would bet here. It was a minor gamble, but I'm pretty sure it's not "bad poker".

I don't know what happened to the converter, but I checked the river, BB bet, UTG (who was very passive) raised, I thought for a while thinking I should call in a big pot but folded anyway, and UTG took it down with the flush. BB had 10,9.

davelin · #18 06-23-2005, 09:26 AM

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Maybe it's more prevelant in SH games, but like I said people like to auto-bet in LP when checked to them; especially on the flop.
I had been raising big non-wired cards PF frequently at this table OOP, getting mostly crappy flops, and check/calling the flop before check/folding the turn. I believe I did exactly that from the BB w/ AK on the previous orbit. I was confident somebody would bet here. It was a minor gamble, but I'm pretty sure it's not "bad poker".

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Well I definitely think it's not good poker so that leaves "bad poker" and "so-so poker". One of the biggest problems is since you're not sure who's going to bet your check-raise accomplishes different things depending on who you end up raising. Rarely is the case that the pot-building move is about equal in terms of viability to the pot-protecting move.

McGahee · #19 06-23-2005, 09:31 AM

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Maybe it's more prevelant in SH games, but like I said people like to auto-bet in LP when checked to them; especially on the flop.
I had been raising big non-wired cards PF frequently at this table OOP, getting mostly crappy flops, and check/calling the flop before check/folding the turn. I believe I did exactly that from the BB w/ AK on the previous orbit. I was confident somebody would bet here. It was a minor gamble, but I'm pretty sure it's not "bad poker".

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Well I definitely think it's not good poker so that leaves "bad poker" and "so-so poker". One of the biggest problems is since you're not sure who's going to bet your check-raise accomplishes different things depending on who you end up raising. Rarely is the case that the pot-building move is about equal in terms of viability to the pot-protecting move.

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Yeah, it can accomplish different things, but I don't see that as a bad thing. You referenced betting as a protection move, but you're not really protecting here by betting, you're just "unprotecting less" than if it were to get checked thru. That's a risk I'm willing to take if there's a lot of people in the hand and there's a decent chance I can really protect with a C/R to a bettor on my right.

davelin · #20 06-23-2005, 09:37 AM

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Maybe it's more prevelant in SH games, but like I said people like to auto-bet in LP when checked to them; especially on the flop.
I had been raising big non-wired cards PF frequently at this table OOP, getting mostly crappy flops, and check/calling the flop before check/folding the turn. I believe I did exactly that from the BB w/ AK on the previous orbit. I was confident somebody would bet here. It was a minor gamble, but I'm pretty sure it's not "bad poker".

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Well I definitely think it's not good poker so that leaves "bad poker" and "so-so poker". One of the biggest problems is since you're not sure who's going to bet your check-raise accomplishes different things depending on who you end up raising. Rarely is the case that the pot-building move is about equal in terms of viability to the pot-protecting move.

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Yeah, it can accomplish different things, but I don't see that as a bad thing. You referenced betting as a protection move, but you're not really protecting here by betting, you're just "unprotecting less" than if it were to get checked thru. That's a risk I'm willing to take if there's a lot of people in the hand and there's a decent chance I can really protect with a C/R to a bettor on my right.

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1) Getting this checked through would be really, really bad. Not just a mild annoyance, just plain bad.

2) Sometimes you can get protection by betting if someone is willing to raise you soon after (in this case BB would've raised and made others face 2 cold).

So betting guarantees no check-through and not infrequently offers just as much protection as risking check-raising a late bettor.