The War is Over, and We Won

[Broken Glass Can]

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We will be completely caught off guard when he announces the withdrawal of our troops, just as people were when he suddenly turned over the government.

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If this happens it will be the ultimate moral failing of this country. I can think of nothing worse that we could do than abandon Iraq.

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We are not abandoning Iraq, we are turning it over to a new democratic government (but only when they are ready to take over).

People just want to complain for political reasons. We are damned if we are in Iraq, and we are damned if we leave Iraq.

[superleeds]

oops, and twice [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[ptmusic]

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Nice, unbiased source.

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Nice logical fallacy.

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Nice logical fallacious reply.

ptmusic

[Greg J]

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People just want to complain for political reasons. We are damned if we are in Iraq, and we are damned if we leave Iraq.

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I'm not sure if you are making an accusation or not, but I am not being disengenous in my argument. I 100% dissagree with Ted Kennedy or any other Democrat that calls for us leaving Iraq. If we were to start withdrawing troops it would be a huge moral failure on our part. That is, of course, unless Iraq is stable and strong enough to govern itself and respects human rights. Any premature pullout of American resources, financial or military, is morally wrong. I don't care which party does it.

Iraq is a challenge, and one we should be sacrificing more for. In fact, I don't think we are spedning NEARLY enough in Iraq. There are too many unemployed. If President Bush were to do as you say, and surprise us all by withdrawing troops, and the country implodes in civil war, the blood is on our hands. If President [insert most vilified Democrat here] were to do the same, and the country implodes in civil war, the blood is on our hands.

I like it when Bush says "we must stay the course." He is right. That is our charge. The fact is we need to be doing more. Iraq needs a Marshall plan, meanwhile we give tax cuts across the board. We are not living up to our moral obligation as it is. If we abondon it completely, history will judge us appropriately.

[Greg J]

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First will come the triumphalist bullshit - ie Mission Accomplished.

Second will come the premature withdrawal.

Third will (probably) come the rise of sectarianism and the breakdown of democratic rule.

Fourth will come the historical revisionism of the "the war was a good idea, if only we had done it right" variety.

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This is my worst fear re: Iraq. I can think of nothing more immoral than invading a country to remove a dictator we didn't like, then leaving prematurely and allowing the country to implode. Forget whether you supported the war or not. Many Democrats have this weird complex that since they didn't support the war they have no obligation to see Iraq through to the end. Bullshit! They need to get thier heads out of thier asses and realize that this is not about partisan politics, opposing Bush, or whatever. There is a higher moral calling here.

I'm a Democrat, but it makes me want to strangle Ted Kennedy when he calls for pulling out troops. He is no better than that "Freedom fries" idiot when he says that. What we need is MORE troops, and MORE money in Iraq. This is not about Americans. It's about the Iraqis whose self determination we saw fit to determine. We better do a good job.

[lastchance]

The American government does not care about the welfare of the people in Iraq, nor should it unless it pertains to the interests of America. That's how the world works.

Right now, considering the value of Iraq as a success, and very good numbers on the confidence Iraqis have of their government, it would be a mistake to pull out, IMHO.

[Greg J]

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The American government does not care about the welfare of the people in Iraq, nor should it unless it pertains to the interests of America.

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Interesting. You mean that our interest in democracy is not to make the world a better place? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[lastchance]

Yes, and you agree with me. It's how the world works. :/ Take it for what it is.

[kurto]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The CIA believes the Iraq insurgency poses an international threat and may produce better-trained Islamic terrorists than the 1980s Afghanistan war that gave rise to Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda, a U.S. counterterrorism official said on Wednesday.

A classified report from the U.S. spy agency says Iraqi and foreign fighters are developing a broad range of deadly skills, from car bombings and assassinations to tightly coordinated conventional attacks on police and military targets, the official said.

Once the insurgency ends, Islamic militants are likely to disperse as highly organized battle-hardened combatants capable of operating throughout the Arab-speaking world and in other regions including Europe.

Fighters leaving Iraq would primarily pose a challenge for their countries of origin including Saudi Arabia and Jordan.

But the May report, which has been widely circulated in the intelligence community, also cites a potential threat to the United States.

"You have people coming to the action with anti-U.S. sentiment ... And since they're Iraqi or foreign Arabs or to some degree Kurds, they have more communities they can blend into outside Iraq," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity due to the report's classified status.

Iraq has become a magnet for Islamic militants similar to Soviet-occupied Afghanistan two decades ago and Bosnia in the 1990s, U.S. officials say.

Bin Laden won prominence as a U.S. ally in the war against Soviet troops in Afghanistan. He later used Afghanistan as the training center for his al Qaeda network, which is blamed for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on Washington and New York.

President Bush justified the invasion of Iraq in part by charging that Saddam Hussein was supporting al Qaeda. A top U.S. inquiry later found no collaboration between prewar Iraq and the bin Laden network.

But since the invasion, Jordanian-born militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has emerged as a key insurgent figure and pledged his allegiance to bin Laden.

While the Afghan war against the Soviets was largely fought on a rural battlefield, the CIA report said Iraq is providing extremists with more comprehensive skills including training in operations devised for populated urban areas.

"You have everything from bombings and assassinations to more or less conventional attacks," the counterterrorism official said.

"The urban warfare experience, for people facing fairly tight police and military activity at close quarters, should enable them to operate in a wider range of settings."

CIA Director Porter Goss first described the insurgency in Iraq as an emerging international threat in February during testimony before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.

Vice President Dick Cheney has recently argued that the insurgency is in its last throes, despite reports that the guerrillas have grown more sophisticated and more deadly.

Goss said in an interview with Time magazine that the insurgency was not quite in its last throes, "but I think they are very close to it. And I think that every day that goes by in Iraq where they have their own government and it's moving forward reinforces just how radical (the insurgents) are and how unwanted they are."

[QuadsOverQuads]

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Keep putting out the lies. Your fuhrer believes that if you lie big, and often enough, then it becomes magically the truth.

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As long as his followers keep immersing themselves in the latest Party-generated propaganda, nobody among them will know the difference anyway.


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