Player tells and the subconscious

[bernie]

i dont think it would take 10 times to confirm this. i take it session by session. and factor in changes in emotion on the player which may alter this subtle action. which is another reason i watch how they interact off the table in certain situations that can relate to cards. how they react to different levels of confrontation, whether it's even a simple difference in opinion over something meaningless, can help your read of the player and confirmation of some tells. the better i rate the player, though, the more samples i want for confirmation

everytime he does it, the odds of you being right, after confirmation, goes up. i dont think you need it to be 100% to use it...

i think, and have advocated confirming the tell and not going off just 1 or 2 occurences...i agree with that, but say its 3 or 4 times and this is an unsofisticated player. those types tend to be very habitual. the regular player isnt going to throw reverse tells. unless he's very obvious about it, because he wont be aware enough of tells in the first place. his game isnt that hardened.

i use/observe bet speed quite a bit with typical/normal players. and some really telegraph their strength. and you can use bet speed, when mimicing against them as the poster did. you can do that with just betting patterns alone in many cases.

say a typical guy bets kinda casually for a couple hours...then a hand comes up and he's betting very deliberately. now you know this player isnt going to bet this way with a marginal hand. if he had any question, he'd be hesitating a tad if you reraised, but he doesnt slow down....his 3 bet speed is a hair faster than his original bet. almost like he's waiting for his turn so he can raise again. obviously his heart rate is up. you call, safe card on turn and he bets deliberately again. with either the same speed as the 3 bet or even a hair faster...this is a very common bet speed tell. and many casual players arent bluffing at this point.

youll know his bluff tendency from earlier hands, and youll see how he bets when he is bluffing.

it's not hard to notice even the slightest bet speed change when youre on the table with a guy for awhile. you know what his normal speed is, because youve seen it all session. when that bet speed changes, it may be worth watching his showdown. true, it may just mean he woke up a little more due to coffee or whatever, but see this a couple more times, with certain hands, you have a good start on a solid read. IMO

now if i play this player at a later date, im aware of his tendency for this tell, but he may be in a different state of mind and thus the tell is much less noticeable. to where other times its more noticeable. so i have to see how prominent it is in a new session, or be aware if it surfaces during the session...

remember Al, i think it was in your book where you said a stonekiller style is unnatural. which i also agree with. i think the opposite of that can fall into a more predictable, habitual pattern. especially when many typical/casual players let emotion creep into their play. it comes out in their play in an expressive form.

just some stuff to kick around

b

[Noo Yawk]

This is spot on what I was looking for.
So there is something to mirroring a players moves in order to persuade him to act as you want. Are there any books or other advice you get share that would be beneficial?

[Jedi Poker]

There is an encyclopedia in the following website that should answer some of your questions:

www.nlpuniversitypress.com

Read these entries in the following order:
1) "rapport"
2) "pacing and leading"
3) "Erickson, Milton" (source of these ideas and skills)
4) "mirroring" (will show you an exercise)

Hope this helps.