fish bait

[intheflatfield]

I used to make this play on a regular basis, and I did indeed lose too many big pots to a hand that never should have seen the turn, much less the river.

For instance if the villain makes their hand on the turn. Most "cognizent" players will wait for turn b4 they act on it. They will wait for you're sizable follow up bet on the turn, then go over the top, or simply call you're turn bet and raise whatever river bet you have.

Plus, a "non-cognizant" player that has made 2 pair or similar would raise or bet on the flop with or w/o your slow play.

As an occasional alternative to slow-playing I don't have a problem with it, but in doing so you are potentially risking you're entire stack trying to be "cute". In my book this falls under FPS.

[Guruman]

I'm glad to be seeing so many critical responses. This helps me hash out my logic, so bear with me a bit.

Panda: [ QUOTE ]
You give me HUGE HUGE implied odds to draw to random hands, like gutshots, bottom pair, etc.

I will raise you the first time I have an actual made hand, and I will figure out your little minbet tactic. I then can figure out when you're likely on a draw and raise then with anything, giving you incorrect odds and force you to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate the thought process behind your defense here, but I think that if I restrict myself to a very tight set of circumstances to try this play, I can still keep you off of me. The main flaw in raising without a made hand as a defense is the fact that you're raising into a field of opponents.

As an ex: which of the situations that I posted above would you re-raise with?

If you re-raise in with bottom pair and get called in two spots, then you can't be very happy with your play, regardless of whether or not I drop. Remember, I am only suggesting this play initially as an alternative to a check-raise. If I see you being too aggressive in defending against it on my drawing hands, I'll restrict myself to made hands with it for a while until I can get you to back off (or go bust). Then its back to normal.

re:implied odds - The check-raise move offers your opponents infinite implied odds initially. This one offers less than that, and can have the same effect if someone tries to isolate with it. The main advantage that i can see the check/raise has over this play is that someone may put in a substantial bet with a weaker hand when no-one seems to want the pot.

----------------------

Here's why I think I like this play:

1)it guards against a checked-through check-raise attempt with a made hand, and allows me to re-isolate a raiser

2)if it slows down aggressive opponents in future hands, it could buy me correct drawing odds from early position when the alternative of a check would have been substantially raised from late position with anything.

I think that this move is very situation dependant, but I'm still thinking it has some very good potential.

please continue to tear this move apart, and also show me how you would defend against it in the hands I posted.

Thanks!

[sexypanda]

[ QUOTE ]
I appreciate the thought process behind your defense here, but I think that if I restrict myself to a very tight set of circumstances to try this play, I can still keep you off of me. The main flaw in raising without a made hand as a defense is the fact that you're raising into a field of opponents.

As an ex: which of the situations that I posted above would you re-raise with?

If you re-raise in with bottom pair and get called in two spots, then you can't be very happy with your play, regardless of whether or not I drop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never reraise with bottom pair, since that hand has some value to it. If you minbet into me with that, I'd just call, hoping to hit trips or 2 pair. Even if I do hit my hand though, I would be suspicious of a trap with a big hand and see how you bet on the turn, and try to deduce likely hands you may be trapping with.

The only time I would bluff reraise is when I suspect your on a draw, am in a late position, and your bet was folded to me, or maybe one caller (who I previously observed making very loose calls in this situation), and very few (if any) people to act behind me. This seems to work more often than not.

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, I am only suggesting this play initially as an alternative to a check-raise. If I see you being too aggressive in defending against it on my drawing hands, I'll restrict myself to made hands with it for a while until I can get you to back off (or go bust). Then its back to normal.

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems fine, but you'll find yourself just not doing it, because once you're just doing it with made hands, your just giving everyone huge implied odds to outdraw you. That doesn't seem like a reasonable strategy just to play back at one agressive opponent at your table.

[ QUOTE ]
re:implied odds - The check-raise move offers your opponents infinite implied odds initially. This one offers less than that, and can have the same effect if someone tries to isolate with it. The main advantage that i can see the check/raise has over this play is that someone may put in a substantial bet with a weaker hand when no-one seems to want the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how this replaces the check-raise at all. I haven't read all of your posts in this thread, but from experience, this move is usually made in order for an opponent in an early position to try to draw cheaply. If that player mixes it up, he then starts giving opponents large implied odds with his made hands. I'm just saying that it's very transparent, and if you try to mix it up, you'll end up costing yourself a lot.

[Guruman]

well, it worked once [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

NL tourney tonight. about midway through, blinds 150/300 I have about $40k, villains have around $30k

A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG
I make it $1200 to go and get two callers. Both aggressive and looseish.

flop comes T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet the min ($200)

villain 1 calls
villain 2 raises all in
I re-raise all in to push out villain 1
villain 1 folds
villain 2 shows JJ and MHIG

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG
I make it $1200 to go and get two callers. Both aggressive and looseish.

flop comes T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet the min ($200)

villain 1 calls
villain 2 raises all in
I re-raise all in to push out villain 1
villain 1 folds
villain 2 shows JJ and MHIG

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you want villain 1 out? I'm learning.

[Kevroc]

[ QUOTE ]
I re-raise all in to push out villain 1

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

It's 5:1 odds for him to fill up, give him a chance to make a bad call, or chase a smaller flush, no?

[Guruman]

I think pocket pairs will call my pre-flop raise a big percentage of the time. Id rather go against one PP with a flush than two. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Also, if he's going to call villain 1's all in, he'll call mine as well, so this can be for value too.

[Guruman]

people seem to resent this play, so it may not be worth much without a made hand anyway. we'll see...

same tourney blinds $300/$600 now. I've got $92k and villain has around $30k

Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] one caller and I make it 1800 to go

flop comes 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet the min ($300) and villain raises all-in. I make an admittedly marginal call and villain shows AK. MHIG

I think people are really starting to resent this play and are playing back at it with less than stellar hands.

[Guruman]

won the tourney vs 193 ppl, but could not use the fish bait to get cheap odds on a draw. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] seems to work well with a made hand though [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]