2/4 Party BBJ - weak flush play - Page 2

eleventy · #1 06-09-2005, 04:36 PM

If AA had A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] you might have been able to cap the Turn and J4o woulda been along for the ride. As you played you got the same bets in as if you raised the turn and they called you down. If you bet you probably get more. And raise the flop.

Munga30 · #2 06-09-2005, 04:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Question for the repliers. If you know that raising the flop will make everyone check/call (or fold) down the rest of the way do you smooth play the flop and raise the turn, or still raise the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

After all those flop calls, still raise. The volume (edge x players) is too big to pass up for the uncertainty of whether you'll be bet into when the flush card comes on the turn. If it were a bet and single call to you on the flop, calling becomes a better option because you're not passing on nearly as much value.

poker-penguin · #3 06-09-2005, 06:02 PM

How about this hand?

Have I learned my lesson yet? Or am I erring in the other direction now?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG+2 posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

brettbrettr · #4 06-09-2005, 06:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How about this hand?

Have I learned my lesson yet? Or am I erring in the other direction now?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG+2 posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this might qualify as other direction, although you might be buying yourself some ace outs if weak ones fold. I'd call the flop raise though, build the pot. Then spike a heart at some point.

Chuckles1248 · #5 06-09-2005, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about this hand?

Have I learned my lesson yet? Or am I erring in the other direction now?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG+2 posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this might qualify as other direction, although you might be buying yourself some ace outs if weak ones fold. I'd call the flop raise though, build the pot. Then spike a heart at some point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his line here is fine, he's possibly cleaning up his ace outs, and he's got 12 outs to the nut straight/flush. OOP, however, I'd be more inclined to bet the turn after 3-betting the flop, because you're very unlikely to get a free card, and with three people in you still have a pretty huge equity edge. I could be a bit LAGgy, however, I dunno.

poker-penguin · #6 06-09-2005, 06:30 PM

Obviously, spiking a heart on the river was part of my master plan. My pattern mapper said there was a 50.4% chance of one coming but I wanted to disguise my knowledge. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I thought raising the flop was going to build more of a pot than calling (I was expecting more calls from the guys in the middle).

nfscreech · #7 06-09-2005, 09:11 PM

Raise PF.
Flop is good.
I'd lead the turn after 3 betting.
Lead the river.

You must be learning something because hand was played much better than the first [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

poker-penguin · #8 06-09-2005, 09:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You must be learning something because hand was played much better than the first [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.

I've decided that as part of my masterplan to stop sucking, I should start posting in this forum. Avoiding public criticism of my play is a very effective motivational tool. Hopefully this fear will mean I play better, and don't just not post bad hands.

crunchy1 · #9 06-09-2005, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG+2 posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 (poster) checks, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
Contrary to the comments you've already recieved - I really don't think you played this hand all that great.

Start by raising PF. You've have an unquestionable equity edge against all these limpers (and poster) - exploit it now before the flop. The whole hand will play differently if you do this so I'll disregard it in the rest of my comments.

Good flop lead but, I don't like the 3-bet. You just watched all the limpers call your one bet on the flop - smooth call the raise and let them trail along with you. You've got a draw to the pure nuts but, you're not there yet - this is a good time to keep them around now to pay you off later. Plus the more they invest now the more they will feel committed to see a showdown when they're behind.

Turn would play the same - hopefully with 6 players instead of 3.

If there's still 4-6 players around on the river it's an easy time to go for a checkraise. One of them will likely stick in a bet and if you're really lucky it will be close to your left and you'll have a good opportunity to raise/3-bet against the whole field.

I think you left a bunch of bets in your opponent's stacks on this hand.

poker-penguin · #10 06-10-2005, 12:01 AM

I didn't completely butcher this hand though, so I'm improving [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But seriously, thanks for your comments, everyone.

I like crunchy's alternate history, although I thought at the time that I'd keep most of the limpers even if I three bet, I was obviously wrong, but my read was I'd get more money (and hence pot commitment) in this way.

*sigh* I no play goot.