How many times did i screw up on this hand?

[trainslayer]

I'd also like to see some responses about my equity on the flop.

I've got 9 outs to 2nd nut flush but if somebody already has the ace those outs are worthless. Do I discount them and, if so, by how much. I also have the three other 8's and Q's. If an 8 comes I'm behind Q10 so I guess I have to discount those too. Plus the three K's give me in the neighborhood of 12-15 outs. Is this close? That means my draws come in 25-30% of the time? With 5 players my equity is 20% ? I can raise for value here? I struggle w/this just sitting here doing nothing. It's a real pain for me trying to do it on the fly.

[Catt]

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Just once I think.

pf.

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you think i shoulda folded preflop?

please explain.

SSHE starting hand guide says to call any 2 >= 10 from late position. I don't play exclusively by the guide but I was on the button w/2 limpers and at least a bb check. I know I would not like to see a raise from sb or bb but what the hell.

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How about raising pre-flop?

[hbaromega]

i play it the same

[gopnik]

I think I would do it the other way around: call the flop and raise the turn. I don't think there is any point to try to get TAGs out of the hand because if you hit, you'll take this pot and A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is not folding. I'd raise the turn for value.

[trainslayer]

Ok, maybe that's what shadow meant. But I guess I'm just too damn weak. I don't see raising as a good option. K10o is not that great of a hand. I want to get in as cheaply as possible to see what the flop brings.

I was also fixin' to type I don't want the blinds to fold because that lowers my pot odds for playing the hand, but even if they do fold the two limpers are probably gonna come along so it's a wash. And a raise here might give me some more info on everyone else's holdings. Might even win the pot right here and that wouldn't be bad either.

I'll have to think about this one.

thanks

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, maybe that's what shadow meant. But I guess I'm just too damn weak. I don't see raising as a good option. K10o is not that great of a hand. I want to get in as cheaply as possible to see what the flop brings.

I was also fixin' to type I don't want the blinds to fold because that lowers my pot odds for playing the hand, but even if they do fold the two limpers are probably gonna come along so it's a wash. And a raise here might give me some more info on everyone else's holdings. Might even win the pot right here and that wouldn't be bad either.

I'll have to think about this one.

thanks

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I think you're on the right track. Here's a case for raising this pre-flop - let me know what makes sense and what is BS.

You have what may be a slightly loose passive limper UTG (read's not enough to say much); you have an unknown limper in MP; you have the button with a decent hand, one that might very well be best and is probably not a huge dog if it is not best; you have two TAGs sitting on dead money behind you.

If you limp you invite the two TAGs to the party and are playing KTo in a five-handed unraised pot.
If you raise you stand a reasonable chance of folding out the TAGs (and I'd say an excellent chance of folding out at least SB). You act last on the flop. If it gets 3-handed when the flop comes after your raise, how often do you think the action goes check-check-bet-fold-fold (or it gets to the turn and goes check-bet-fold). If a scary flop comes (like this one) how much more often does it happen?

People often exclaim that they can't understand how other players have PFR% in the double digits -- it is situations similar to this one where the circumstances offer up favorable reasons to raise (position; nature of blinds; hand strength; prior action) what might otherwise not be a raising hand.

[shadow29]

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Ok, maybe that's what shadow meant. But I guess I'm just too damn weak. I don't see raising as a good option. K10o is not that great of a hand. I want to get in as cheaply as possible to see what the flop brings.

I was also fixin' to type I don't want the blinds to fold because that lowers my pot odds for playing the hand, but even if they do fold the two limpers are probably gonna come along so it's a wash. And a raise here might give me some more info on everyone else's holdings. Might even win the pot right here and that wouldn't be bad either.

I'll have to think about this one.

thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're on the right track. Here's a case for raising this pre-flop - let me know what makes sense and what is BS.

You have what may be a slightly loose passive limper UTG (read's not enough to say much); you have an unknown limper in MP; you have the button with a decent hand, one that might very well be best and is probably not a huge dog if it is not best; you have two TAGs sitting on dead money behind you.

If you limp you invite the two TAGs to the party and are playing KTo in a five-handed unraised pot.
If you raise you stand a reasonable chance of folding out the TAGs (and I'd say an excellent chance of folding out at least SB). You act last on the flop. If it gets 3-handed when the flop comes after your raise, how often do you think the action goes check-check-bet-fold-fold (or it gets to the turn and goes check-bet-fold). If a scary flop comes (like this one) how much more often does it happen?

People often exclaim that they can't understand how other players have PFR% in the double digits -- it is situations similar to this one where the circumstances offer up favorable reasons to raise (position; nature of blinds; hand strength; prior action) what might otherwise not be a raising hand.

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This is exactly what I was going to say had I not left for lunch.

The key to the situation is the TAGs in the blinds.

[trainslayer]

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let me know what makes sense and what is BS.


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real good sense

i love it when i learn something new here.

i also like the flop call/turn raise line

thanks all

[SteveL91]

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let me know what makes sense and what is BS.


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real good sense

i love it when i learn something new here.

i also like the flop call/turn raise line

thanks all

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I really think you're better off raising the flop and calling the turn (raising the turn is also acceptable, but it depends on your aggression level and reads).

You raise the flop because you have the second one card nut flush and you might be able to buy yourself a free card. The A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] isn't going to be out often enough that you should be willing to ignore potentially profitable situations like this.

[trainslayer]

Sorry for bumpin my own thread but I never got any response on the equity thang. Anyone? Am I on track here?

[ QUOTE ]
I'd also like to see some responses about my equity on the flop.

I've got 9 outs to 2nd nut flush but if somebody already has the ace those outs are worthless. Do I discount them and, if so, by how much. I also have the three other 8's and Q's. If an 8 comes I'm behind Q10 so I guess I have to discount those too. Plus the three K's give me in the neighborhood of 12-15 outs. Is this close? That means my draws come in 25-30% of the time? With 5 players my equity is 20% ? I can raise for value here? I struggle w/this just sitting here doing nothing. It's a real pain for me trying to do it on the fly.

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